LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 1995
9:40 A.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
(APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
(PAGES 15174 THROUGH 15192,
VOLUME 90A, TRANSCRIBED AND
SEALED UNDER SEPARATE COVER.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
GOOD MORNING, COUNSEL.
MR. COCHRAN: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER.
MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN PRESENT WITH HIS COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. COCHRAN, MR. DOUGLAS, MR. BAILEY, PEOPLE REPRESENTED BY MISS CLARK AND MR. DARDEN. THE JURY IS NOT PRESENT.
COUNSEL, ANYTHING WE NEED TO DISCUSS BEFORE WE RESUME WITH THE JURY?
MR. SHAPIRO.
MR. SHAPIRO: YES, YOUR HONOR, BRIEFLY, PLEASE.
YOUR HONOR, ONCE BEFORE, WE WERE CONFRONTED WITH A SITUATION WHERE ALLEGED SCIENTIFIC RESULTS WERE PRESENTED IN THE MEDIA FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION BEFORE TESTS WERE DONE BY THE SCIENTISTS THEMSELVES AND NOW WE ARE CONFRONTED WITH A MORE SERIOUS PROBLEM.
WE ARE CONFRONTED WITH A PROBLEM WHERE ONE OF THE PROSECUTORS IN THIS CASE HAS PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED TO YOUR HONOR ON THE RECORD SCIENTIFIC RESULTS FROM SPOTS 115, 116 AND 117 AND HAS TOLD YOUR HONOR THAT THESE STAINS HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED AS MR. SIMPSON'S.
AND ONCE AGAIN, WE ARE IN THE POSITION THAT THIS STATEMENT IS WITHOUT ANY SCIENTIFIC BASIS SINCE, REGARDING STAINS 115 AND 116, THEY HAVE YET TO BE TESTED, AND REGARDING STAIN 117, THE TEST THAT WAS COMPLETED WAS A PRELIMINARY TEST, THAT THAT TEST WAS INTERRUPTED BY A FIRE ALARM AT THE LABORATORY AND NO DEFINITIVE RESULTS WERE OBTAINED.
AND FINALLY, AS MR. ROCKNE HARMON, THE EXPERT IN DNA FROM THE PROSECUTION WELL KNOWS, THAT THE RESULTS OF THOSE TESTS ARE FAR FROM DEFINITIVE AND THAT UNDER THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT WERE PRESENTED; NAMELY, A POINT -- 1.1, 1.2, THAT THERE IS A 50 PERCENT CHANCE THAT THE OFFSPRING OF MR. SIMPSON WOULD HAVE THOSE IDENTICAL GENETIC MARKERS AND FIVE TO EIGHT PERCENT OF THE POPULATION WOULD HAVE THOSE IDENTICAL GENETIC MARKERS.
TO MAKE THE STATEMENT TO YOUR HONOR AND FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION THAT THIS STAIN WAS A STAIN THAT IS THE BLOOD OF MR. SIMPSON IS SCIENTIFICALLY INCORRECT, IS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AND WE HOPE IS NOT AGAIN GOING TO BE A SELF-FULFILLING PROPHESY MADE BY THE PROSECUTION.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, YET ANOTHER PRESS CONFERENCE HAS BEEN LAUNCHED AGAIN BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENSE INSIDE THIS COURTROOM. I THINK THAT THE PRESS CONFERENCES WHICH HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS AND CONTINUOUS MADE BY THE DEFENSE OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM ARE PROBABLY SUFFICIENT.
I WOULD ASK IN THE FUTURE THAT THE COURT PROHIBIT THIS KIND OF RHETORIC, THAT IT IS OF NO ASSISTANCE TO THIS COURT. YOUR HONOR CERTAINLY DIDN'T NEED TO HEAR THAT EXPOSITION OF SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION WHICH WAS MISCHARACTERIZED BY A LAWYER WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THE AREA.
THE TEST THAT WAS PERFORMED ON STAIN 117 WAS PCR. THAT'S NOT JUST A PRELIMINARY TEST. THAT IS A DNA TEST. AND THE ISSUE OF RELATEDNESS CONCERNING WHAT CHARACTERISTICS MIGHT BE SHARED GOES TO SIBLINGS, NOT FATHER AND SON. IF COUNSEL KNEW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS FIELD, HE WOULD KNOW THAT.
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT BEFORE HE STARTS TO -- STANDS UP AND STARTS TO ACCUSE THE POLICE OR THE PROSECUTION OF SUCH SERIOUS MISCONDUCT, HE OUGHT TO AT LEAST UNDERSTAND WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT.
IN THIS CASE, THESE THINGS WERE TESTED, RESULTS WERE OBTAINED. THE RESULTS THAT WERE OBTAINED ARE ACCURATE AND ARE RELIABLE. THEY INDICATE THAT MR. SIMPSON IS INCLUDED, THAT THE STAINS ARE CONSISTENT WITH THE BLOOD TYPES AND THE MARKERS FOUND IN MR. SIMPSON'S BLOOD.
WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TESTING FOR MORE MARKERS. BUT THUS FAR, NOTHING HAS BEEN MISSTATED AT ALL BY MR. HARMON. THE BLOOD RESULTS ARE CONSISTENT WITH THOSE OF MR. SIMPSON'S BLOOD.
AND TO WILLFULLY STAND UP HERE AND MAKE SUCH SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS WITH ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS WHATSOEVER OTHER THAN TO OBTAIN PUBLIC SPIN BACK IN THE DEFENSE FAVOR IS RECKLESS, IS IRRESPONSIBLE AND SHOULD BE SANCTIONED. AND I REALLY DO WISH THE COURT WOULD PRECLUDE THE DEFENSE FROM THIS KIND OF RHETORIC IN THE COURTROOM. THESE PRESS CONFERENCES ARE UNNECESSARY AND UNPRODUCTIVE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
MS. CLARK: AND I'M SORRY I HAD TO WASTE THE COURT'S TIME EVEN SAYING THAT.
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, IF I COULD RESPOND BRIEFLY TO THIS.
THE COURT: BRIEFLY.
MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT I'M REFERRING TO WAS A STATEMENT MADE ON THE RECORD TO YOUR HONOR ON FEBRUARY 15TH FROM PROSECUTOR ROCKNE HARMON.
LET ME QUOTE -- LET ME QUOTE WHAT IT --
THE COURT: I RECALL. YOU DON'T NEED TO QUOTE IT BECAUSE I RECALL IT, COUNSEL.
MR. SHAPIRO: ALL RIGHT.
THE SECOND THING, REGARDING THE EXPERTISE IN THIS AREA IS, I WOULD LIKE TO BRIEFLY QUOTE FROM ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED EXPERTS IN DNA IN THE COUNTRY, MR. ED BLAKE, WHO WAS STIPULATED AS AN EXPERT FOR BOTH SIDES.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. WHAT'S THE POINT OF THIS? IS THIS GOING TO ASSIST THE COURT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM?
THE COURT: MAYBE.
MR. SHAPIRO: YES.
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
YESTERDAY, FEBRUARY 15TH, 1995, PROSECUTOR ROCKNE HARMON REPRESENTED TO YOUR HONOR THAT SAMPLES 115 --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE WHAT COUNSEL IS READING FROM. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT AND I THINK THE PEOPLE ARE ENTITLED TO --
THE COURT: WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH EVIDENCE BEFORE THE JURY, COUNSEL. BUT IF THIS IS A LETTER ADDRESSED TO ME, THEN WHY DON'T I HAVE IT?
MR. SHAPIRO: IT ISN'T ADDRESSED TO YOU. IT'S ADDRESSED TO ME.
THE COURT: WELL, THE COMMENT YOU JUST READ, IT IS ADDRESSED TO ME.
MR. SHAPIRO: IT IS NOT ADDRESSED TO YOU, YOUR HONOR.
MS. CLARK: IF COUNSEL INTENDS TO READ IT IN OPEN COURT, I THINK THE PEOPLE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO AT LEAST EXAMINE THIS LETTER.
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, IF I COULD JUST PROCEED BRIEFLY --
THE COURT: WELL, MR. SHAPIRO, LET ME JUST MAKE THIS ONE COMMENT.
WE HAVE DELAYED GETTING TO THE JURY FOR 45 MINUTES AT THIS POINT. YOU'VE RAISED YOUR OBJECTION. I TAKE THAT AS A WARNING TO THE COURT THAT THIS ISSUE WILL COME UP WHEN WE HIT 115, 116 AND 117. THAT'S THE VALUE IN THE COMMENT TO THE COURT.
I THINK I CAN APPRECIATE WHAT THE ISSUE IS. I DON'T NEED MR. BLAKE'S COMMENTS TO ME AS TO WHAT IT IS OR ISN'T.
MR. SHAPIRO: WITH THE COURT'S PERMISSION, I WOULD LIKE TO FILE AN AFFIDAVIT FROM DR. BLAKE THIS AFTERNOON.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR. AND THAT WAS THE PURPOSE, TO NOTIFY THE COURT.
THE COURT: THAT'S WHAT I TOOK IT AS.
THANK YOU.
MR. DOUGLAS: YOUR HONOR, BRIEFLY, I HAVE ANOTHER MATTER.
THE COURT: ANOTHER MATTER?
MR. DOUGLAS: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MR. DOUGLAS.
MR. DOUGLAS: YOUR HONOR, AS THE COURT IS AWARE, YESTERDAY MISS -- -- RATHER ON WEDNESDAY, I GAVE MR. DARDEN A STATEMENT OF A POTENTIAL WITNESS THAT THE DEFENSE ANTICIPATED PERHAPS CALLING AT TRIAL.
I WAS DISMAYED, YOUR HONOR -- AND MR. DARDEN YESTERDAY ANNOUNCED THE NAME OF THAT WITNESS FOR THE COURT'S EDIFICATION JUST TO PUT ON THE RECORD THAT IN FACT A STATEMENT HAD BEEN GIVEN.
I WAS DISMAYED YESTERDAY THAT I BEGAN RECEIVING PRESS CALLS CONCERNING THE SUBSTANCE OF THE STATEMENT THAT WAS GIVEN TO MR. DARDEN YESTERDAY QUOTING FROM ME, TO ME ASPECTS OF THE STATEMENT TELLING ME THAT THE STATEMENT HAD NOW BEEN RELEASED TO SOME MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS.
I THINK THAT THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS, YOUR HONOR. AS THE COURT IS AWARE, WE ARE CURRENTLY UNDERGOING SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS WITH WITNESSES WHO ARE BEING HOUNDED BY THE PRESS. I WOULD HOPE THAT EVERYONE WOULD APPRECIATE THE IMPORTANCE OF MAINTAINING THE SANCTITY OF WITNESSES WHO ARE SIMPLY PLACED ON LISTS.
AND THE COURT RECOGNIZES THAT IT WOULD BE IMPROPER TO RELEASE NOT ONLY THE SUBSTANCE OF ANY STATEMENTS, BUT ANY SIGNIFICANT PROPRIETARY DETAILS ABOUT WHAT WITNESSES MAY OR MAY NOT BE SAYING.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: AS I SAT THERE LISTENING TO MISS CLARK AND MR. SHAPIRO, I KNEW THAT SOMEHOW THIS MORNING I WOULD BE DRAGGED INTO THE ABYSS WITH THE REST OF THE LAWYERS IN THIS CASE, YOUR HONOR.
NOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT MR. DOUGLAS IS SUGGESTING HERE.
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT I GAVE THE MEDIA A COPY OF A REPORT YOU GAVE ME, MR. DOUGLAS?
MR. DOUGLAS: TALK TO THE COURT, MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: IS THAT WHAT HE IS ATTEMPTING TO SUGGEST TO THE COURT?
THE COURT: THAT'S THE INFERENCE OF WHAT I HEARD.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, I DON'T PLACE MUCH VALUE FROM THE STATEMENT MR. DOUGLAS GAVE TO US FIRST OF ALL.
SECOND OF ALL, IT'S A NEGATIVE STATEMENT. IT'S NOT THE KIND OF STATEMENT THAT WILL ASSIST THE PROSECUTION. IT IS A STATEMENT THAT IS DEROGATORY IN NATURE AND RELATES TO DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN.
SO WHY WOULD WE RELEASE A STATEMENT LIKE THAT TO THE PRESS?
THEY'VE BEEN LEAKING STUFF THROUGHOUT THIS CASE. THEY WERE LEAKING THINGS BEFORE I JOINED THIS CASE. THEY CONTINUE TO LEAK THINGS AND I'M OFFENDED THAT MR. DOUGLAS WOULD SUGGEST TO THE COURT THAT I WILL LEAK ANYTHING.
EVERY REPORTER IN THIS COURTROOM KNOWS I DON'T LEAK ANYTHING, AND I RESENT THAT, MR. DOUGLAS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU.
MR. DARDEN: THE REASON I BROUGHT UP THE ISSUE OF THE REPORT, YOUR HONOR, WAS BECAUSE IT WAS GIVEN TO ME ON FEBRUARY 15, BUT DATED JANUARY 21.
THE COURT: WHICH IS WHY WE PUT IT ON THE RECORD.
MR. DARDEN: AND THAT'S WHY WE PUT IT ON THE RECORD.
THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
WHICH IS WHY I'M ALL THE MORE HAPPY WITH THE DECISION TO SEQUESTER THE JURY.
ALL RIGHT.
DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED.
ALL RIGHT.
LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD MORNING.
THE COURT: I TAKE IT YOU ENJOYED OUR LITTLE SOCIAL EVENT LAST NIGHT?
THE JURY: OUTSTANDING. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: GOOD.
ALL RIGHT.
THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT DETECTIVE RONALD PHILLIPS IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND.
AND GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
RONALD PHILLIPS,
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING ADJOURNMENT, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: DETECTIVE, YOU ARE REMINDED THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.
AND, MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CONCLUDE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
YOU FEELING ALL RIGHT?
A GOOD MORNING, MR. COCHRAN. HOW ARE YOU?
Q FINE.
FEELING ALL RIGHT?
A FEELING FINE.
Q ALL RIGHT. GOOD.
WHEN WE BROKE YESTERDAY, SIR, I ASKED YOU WHETHER OR NOT ARNELLE SIMPSON HAD TOLD YOU THAT HER FATHER WAS OUT OF TOWN DURING THE TIME THAT YOU SPOKE TO HER AT THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE.
A I DID NOT TALK TO MISS ARNELLE. SHE DID NOT TELL ME THAT PERSONALLY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU HEAR HER TELL ONE OF THE OTHER OFFICERS THAT?
A SHE WAS TALKING TO TOM LANGE AFTER -- BEHIND MY BACK AFTER I WAS TALKING TO CATHY ON THE TELEPHONE.
Q AND DID YOU HEAR HER TELL TOM LANGE THAT HER FATHER WAS OUT OF TOWN ON A TRIP?
A I COULD NOT -- I HEARD CONVERSATION, BUT I WAS NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE CONVERSATION.
Q IN OTHER WORDS, YOU HEARD A CONVERSATION, BUT YOU WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO IT AT THAT POINT?
A I WAS TALKING TO SOMEBODY ELSE ON THE TELEPHONE, SIR.
Q SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I DO NOT KNOW.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HAVE YOU HAD OCCASION TO REVIEW ANY REPORTS FROM DETECTIVE LANGE WITH REGARD TO WHAT ARNELLE SIMPSON SAID TO HIM?
A I REVIEWED NONE OF DETECTIVE LANGE'S REPORTS.
Q HAVE YOU HAD OCCASION TO REVIEW ANY REPORTS OF WHAT KATO KAELIN SAID ABOUT O.J. SIMPSON'S WHEREABOUTS THAT MORNING?
A JUST THE ONE THAT YOU SHOWED ME YESTERDAY, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THAT'S THE ONLY REPORT THAT YOU --
A THAT'S THE ONLY REPORT I SEEN.
Q IS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE SEEN THAT REPORT?
A YES, IT IS, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AT THIS POINT OR AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU GAINED ENTRANCE INTO THE HOUSE, INSIDE THE RESIDENCE WAS LANGE, VANNATTER AND YOURSELF, IS THAT RIGHT, AMONG THE POLICE OFFICERS?
A WE WERE THE FIRST ONES THAT ENTERED ALONG WITH ARNELLE. I HAVE NO IDEA WHO FOLLOWED. I WAS TOLD WHO HAD FOLLOWED LATER, BUT I DID NOT SEE THAT.
Q WELL, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ONES THAT YOU SAW. LANGE, VANNATTER AND YOURSELF AS FAR AS POLICE OFFICERS ENTERED INTO THE RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q ALONG WITH ARNELLE SIMPSON, MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND AT THAT POINT, YOU DID NOT SEE EITHER MARK FUHRMAN OR KATO KAELIN; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I DID A VERY SHORT TIME LATER.
Q BUT I'M ASKING AT THAT POINT, YOU DID NOT SEE THEM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I DID NOT SEE THEM ENTER THE HOUSE, NO, SIR.
Q BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAD LAST SEEN MARK FUHRMAN, HE WAS -- WASN'T HE OUT TALKING OR GONE IN KATO KAELIN'S ROOM TALKING WITH HIM?
A I DID NOT SEE WHERE MARK FUHRMAN WENT AFTER I LEFT MR. KATO'S ROOM AND WENT OVER TO ARNELLE'S ROOM.
Q DID YOU FIND OUT AT SOME POINT, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN HAD INTERVIEWED MARK -- INTERVIEWED KATO KAELIN?
A I UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY HAD A CONVERSATION, YES.
Q IN KATO KAELIN'S ROOM; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I BELIEVE THAT'S WHERE THE CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE.
Q NOW, THIS CONVERSATION WITH ARNELLE SIMPSON AND LANGE WHICH YOU WERE ON THE PHONE, WHAT ROOM IN THE SIMPSON HOUSE DID THAT TAKE PLACE?
A THIS WAS ALL TAKING PLACE IN THE KITCHEN RELATIVELY CLOSE TO WHERE THE TELEPHONE WAS THAT I WAS USING. THEY WERE TO MY BACK.
Q ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR --
THE COURT: YES.
MR. COCHRAN: -- THE DIAGRAM?
AND I BELIEVE THIS WAS PEOPLE'S 6 --
MS. CLARK: 66.
THE COURT: MRS. ROBERTSON, THE DIAGRAM OF ROCKINGHAM?
MR. COCHRAN: PEOPLE'S 66.
WE'LL JUST PUT THIS UP BRIEFLY.
THANK YOU.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU POINT TO AND SHOW US GENERALLY WHERE THIS KITCHEN AREA IS ON PEOPLE'S 66 FOR IDENTIFICATION, SIR?
A WELL, I BELIEVE IT'S IN THIS AREA RIGHT AROUND IN HERE SOMEPLACE (INDICATING).
Q NOW, HE'S POINTING TO AN AREA NEAR THE BOTTOM PORTION OF THE RESIDENCE ON PEOPLE'S 66 I UNDERSTAND; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
THE COURT: OF THE MAIN RESIDENCE.
MR. COCHRAN: THE MAIN RESIDENCE.
THE COURT: YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND THERE WAS A PHONE IN THAT LOCATION; WAS THAT CORRECT?
A YES. IT WAS ON THE COUNTERTOP.
Q AND AT THAT POINT, YOU HAD MADE AN EFFORT OR YOU TRIED TO FIND OUT WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A WE HAD ASKED HER SOME QUESTIONS OUTSIDE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU ASKED ARNELLE WHEN YOU SAID HER?
A WELL, SOMEONE ELSE HAD TALKED TO HER ABOUT IT OUTSIDE, AND THEN WE WALKED IN THE HOUSE AND I ASKED HER IF SHE COULD FIND SOME WAY OF TELLING ME OR GET ME IN TOUCH WITH CATHY WHO SHE HAD TOLD ME WOULD KNOW WHERE HER FATHER WAS AT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN DID YOU TALK TO CATHY RANDA?
A AFTER ARNELLE DIALED THE PHONE NUMBER AND GOT AHOLD OF HER, YES.
Q AND IN THE COURSE OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH CATHY RANDA, DID YOU ASCERTAIN THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS ON A PREARRANGED TRIP TO CHICAGO?
A THE WORD "PREARRANGED" WASN'T USED. SHE TOLD ME THAT HE HAD LEFT THE NIGHT BEFORE ON A RED EYE, THAT HE HAD FLOWN TO CHICAGO AND THAT'S WHERE HE WAS AT NOW.
Q AND SHE KNEW ALSO WHICH HOTEL HE WAS IN ALSO; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND WHAT WAS THAT HOTEL, DO YOU RECALL?
A THE CHICAGO O'HARE PLAZA HOTEL I BELIEVE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND SHE WAS ABLE TO GIVE YOU THIS INFORMATION AND SHE WAS COOPERATIVE; WAS SHE NOT?
A VERY COOPERATIVE, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WHAT TIME OF THE MORNING WAS THIS?
A RIGHT JUST A FEW MINUTES AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND AT THAT TIME, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT HOW THE TWO INDIVIDUALS HAD MET THEIR DEATH; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A NO. WE HAD NOT DONE ANY CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION AT THAT TIME.
Q BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE IN THE CONVERSATION AT 6:49, YOU WERE TELLING THE CORONER THAT THEY MAY HAVE BEEN BLUDGEONED TO DEATH OR SHOT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q SO YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THESE PARTICULAR DEATHS THAT MUCH, DID YOU?
A I DID NOT KNOW HOW THEY HAD BEEN KILLED, NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO HOW LONG DID THE CONVERSATION LAST WITH MISS CATHY RANDA, SIR?
A OH, I WOULD SAY NO MORE THAN A MINUTE TO A MINUTE AND A HALF, JUST LONG ENOUGH TO EXPLAIN TO HER WHO I WAS AND I NEEDED THIS INFORMATION, AND SHE GAVE IT TO ME AND I SAID I WOULD CALL INFORMATION AND GET THE NUMBER BECAUSE SHE DID NOT HAVE THE NUMBER.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN WAS THERE A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME IN WHICH YOU CALLED THE AREA CODE AND I PRESUME 312 IN CHICAGO?
A I BELIEVE I CALLED 411 OR WHATEVER AND ASKED FOR THE AREA CODE FOR CHICAGO AND THEN I MADE THAT AREA CODE CALL WITH THE 4 OR 411 AND GOT THAT INFORMATION.
Q AND THEN ARMED WITH THE INFORMATION GIVEN TO YOU BY CATHY RANDA WITH REGARD TO THE HOTEL, YOU THEN WERE ABLE TO GET THE HOTEL INFORMATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q LET'S SEE.
THIS WAS SHORTLY AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING IN LOS ANGELES; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND YOU'RE AWARE THAT -- IF MR. SIMPSON HAD TAKEN A RED EYE TO CHICAGO, WERE YOU ABLE TO ASCERTAIN WHAT TIME HE GOT TO CHICAGO?
A NO, SIR, I DIDN'T.
Q AT ANY RATE, YOU KNEW THAT CHICAGO WAS ABOUT TWO HOURS AHEAD OF LOS ANGELES IN TIME; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND YOU KNEW IF HE HAD TAKEN THE PLANE THERE, HE WOULD HAVE ARRIVED SOMETIME THE EARLY MORNING HOURS IN CHICAGO OF THAT DATE OF JUNE 13TH; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME SO. I'VE NEVER FLOWN TO CHICAGO, SO I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT TAKES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BUT YOU'VE FLOWN EAST, HAVE YOU NOT, AT SOME POINT IN YOUR LIFE?
A YES.
Q FLOWN TO NEW YORK?
A YES.
Q AND YOU KNOW YOU ARRIVE THERE AT 5:00 OR 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, 6:30?
A YES, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU THEN PLACED A CALL TO THE HOTEL IN CHICAGO; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND AT THAT TIME, YOU HAD NEVER BEFORE SPOKEN WITH MR. O.J. SIMPSON ON THE PHONE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A NEVER BEFORE IN MY LIFE.
Q AND YOU WERE CONNECTED TO AN OPERATOR; WERE YOU NOT?
A SOMEONE WHO ANSWERED THE PHONE AT THE HOTEL, YES.
Q AND DID YOU ASK FOR MR. O.J. SIMPSON'S ROOM?
A YES, I DID.
Q NOW, AT THIS POINT, YOU WERE FULFILLING THE FUNCTION THAT YOU HAD BEEN ASKED TO DO EARLIER BY COMMANDER BUSHEY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q WAS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY, SINCE YOU WERE REALLY OFF THE CASE AT THIS POINT, THAT YOU DIDN'T JUST GIVE THAT TO LANGE OR VANNATTER WHO WERE NOW ON THE CASE TO DO THIS?
A LANGE WAS AT THE PRESENT TIME TRYING TO CONSOLE ARNELLE SIMPSON WHO WAS VERY UPSET BEHIND THIS. ALL THESE THINGS WERE GOING ON AT THE SAME TIME.
Q NO. I MEAN EVEN BEFORE THAT TIME. I UNDERSTAND EVERYBODY WAS UPSET.
BUT BEFORE THAT TIME, THIS FUNCTION OF NOTIFYING MR. SIMPSON COULD HAVE BEEN DONE JUST AS EASILY BY THE DETECTIVES ON THE CASE; COULD IT NOT HAVE BEEN?
A IT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY ANYONE.
Q OKAY.
DID YOU EVER CONSIDER HAVING LANGE OR VANNATTER DO IT?
A NEVER CROSSED MY MIND.
Q OKAY.
NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.
NOW, YOU SAID THAT BEFORE THIS PHONE CALL, ARNELLE SIMPSON WAS VERY UPSET. AND HOW WAS SHE MANIFESTING THIS STATE OF BEING UPSET?
A I DIDN'T SAY BEFORE THE PHONE CALL. SHE WAS UPSET. I SAID, AS I WAS MAKING THE PHONE CALL AND TALKING TO HER FATHER ON THE PHONE, DETECTIVE LANGE WAS TALKING TO HER BEHIND AND OBVIOUSLY TELLING HER THE SAME THING THAT I WAS TELLING HER FATHER ON THE PHONE BECAUSE SHE STARTED TO CRY AND BECAME VERY UPSET.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU COULD HEAR THIS AS YOU WERE GOING THROUGH THIS CONVERSATION?
A I COULD HEAR THAT THE WOMAN GOT UPSET, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND PRIOR TO YOUR DIALING THE NUMBER IN CHICAGO, HAD YOU OR LANGE IN YOUR PRESENCE TOLD ARNELLE SIMPSON ABOUT THE DEATH OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
A I DID NOT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT LANGE TOLD HER AND WHEN?
A I DO NOT KNOW THAT.
Q AND THEY WERE BEHIND YOU, SO YOU COULDN'T GIVE US THE EXACT TIMING; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO NOW, YOU THEN RANG AND YOU RECEIVED THE ROOM OF A MAN, SUPPOSEDLY MR. O.J. SIMPSON;
IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND THE LAPD POLICY -- WE TALKED ABOUT THIS YESTERDAY.
FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNEW THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS NOT THE NEXT OF KIN. THIS WAS HIS EX-WIFE, RIGHT? YOU KNEW THAT?
A SOMEONE HAD TOLD ME THAT, YES.
Q AND IN YOUR POLICY, LAPD POLICY, YOU WERE TO GIVE SOME KIND OF A PERSONAL NOTIFICATION IF AT ALL POSSIBLE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.
Q WOULD IT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO CALL AND GET SOME COOPERATION FROM A CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER TO GO AND MAKE THIS NOTIFICATION PERHAPS IN A MORE GENTLE FASHION THAN AWAKING SOMEBODY UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT TELLING THEM THEIR EX-WIFE HAD BEEN KILLED? WOULD IT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE?
A I COULD HAVE DONE IT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS. THIS IS THE WAY THAT I CHOSE TO DO IT AND I THOUGHT IT WAS DONE VERY HUMANELY AND THAT'S THE WAY I DID IT.
Q WELL, I UNDERSTAND THIS IS THE WAY YOU DID IT. I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT OTHER WAYS YOU COULD HAVE DONE IT CONSISTENT WITH THE LAPD POLICY.
AND YOU HAD SAID TO US YESTERDAY THAT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WERE STRIVING FOR WAS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF SENSITIVITY.
A YES.
Q THAT YOU WANTED TO GET THIS DONE BECAUSE COMMANDER BUSHEY HAD TOLD YOU TO DO IT, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT PERHAPS IN COMPORTING WITH THE LAPD POLICY, CERTAINLY A WAY TO DO THIS IN COMPORTING WITH THAT POLICY WOULD BE TO GET A CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER, GIVE HIM THE FACTS OR HER THE FACTS, HAVE THEM GO TO THAT ROOM, WAKE THIS MAN UP AND ACTUALLY TELL THIS MAN IN PERSON?
THAT'S PART OF THE LAPD POLICY. THAT WAS A WAY; WAS IT NOT?
A WELL, I THINK THE SITUATION DICTATED WHAT HAPPENED BECAUSE WE HAD GONE ONTO THE PROPERTY AND WE HAD CONTACTED HIS DAUGHTER. SHE KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG, TO HAVE SOME POLICEMAN AT HER HOUSE AT 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING. SHE KNEW SOMETHING WAS UP, SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH HER FATHER OR SOMETHING --
Q WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ARNELLE RIGHT NOW.
WE KNOW SHE KNEW SOMETHING WAS UP.
A WELL, CONTACTING ARNELLE KIND OF FORCED THE HAND.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WELL, YOU COMFORTED ARNELLE.
BUT STILL, MY QUESTION WAS, SIR, YOU COULD HAVE ARRANGED FOR A CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER TO MAKE THIS NOTIFICATION; COULD YOU NOT HAVE?
A I CERTAINLY COULD HAVE.
Q BUT WE DIDN'T DO THAT, DID WE?
A I DID NOT.
Q SO YOU THEN RANG A ROOM THAT WAS SUPPOSEDLY MR. O.J. SIMPSON'S ROOM. AND COULD YOU TELL WHETHER OR NOT THAT PERSON APPEARED TO HAVE BEEN SLEEPING AT THE TIME THAT YOU MADE THIS CALL?
A I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THE CALL -- THIS WAS SHORTLY AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK A.M. ON JUNE 13TH; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND WITH REGARD TO THIS, YOU DID IN FACT MAKE A REPORT REGARDING THIS ASPECT OF YOUR INVOLVEMENT; DID YOU NOT?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND HAVE YOU SEEN THAT AND READ IT OVER RECENTLY?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND THIS REPORT THAT'S NUMBERED, COUNSEL, 00829 FROM JUNE 13, 1994, LOCATION, 360 ROCKINGHAM, LABELED STATEMENT --
MR. COCHRAN: DO YOU HAVE IT?
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU WROTE THIS STATEMENT WHEN, SIR, IN RELATION TO JUNE 13TH, 1994?
A I BELIEVE I PROBABLY MADE IT THE FOLLOWING DAY, JUNE 14TH.
Q AND IF YOU LOOK AT THIS STATEMENT -- LET ME APPROACH.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I, YOUR HONOR?
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WOULD THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHEN YOU ACTUALLY MADE THIS STATEMENT? LET ME JUST SHOW IT TO YOU, PLACE IT BEFORE YOU.
A IT DOESN'T REFRESH MY MEMORY AS TO EXACTLY WHEN IT -- WHAT TIME AND WHAT DAY I DID IT. IT JUST TELLS THE DATE THAT THAT CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE ON JUNE 13TH.
Q IT DOES SAY JUNE 13TH, RIGHT?
A THAT'S THE DAY THE CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE.
Q AND THIS IS A STATEMENT BY DETECTIVE III RONALD PHILLIPS, RIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND HAS YOUR IDENTIFYING NUMBER; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND THIS STATEMENT WAS ACCURATE AT THE TIME YOU DID IT, WHETHER YOU DID IT ON THE 13TH OR 14TH, RIGHT?
A TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU TOLD MR. SIMPSON, ACCORDING TO YOUR STATEMENT, THAT -- YOU GAVE HIM YOUR NAME; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND YOU TOLD HIM THAT YOU HAD TO RELAY SOME BAD INFORMATION TO HIM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND AT THAT POINT, WHEN YOU SAID YOU HAD TO RELAY SOME BAD INFORMATION TO HIM, DID YOU PREFACE IT BY SAYING, "YOUR CHILDREN ARE ALL RIGHT, MR. SIMPSON?" REMEMBER SAYING THAT TO HIM?
A THE CHILDREN WERE BROUGHT UP LATER IN THE CONVERSATION.
Q NO. I'M ASKING YOU NOW, WHEN YOU SAID, "I'VE GOT SOME BAD INFORMATION FOR YOU, BUT YOUR CHILDREN ARE ALL RIGHT," DID YOU SAY THAT AT AN EARLY POINT IN THE CONVERSATION?
A I DON'T RECALL THAT.
Q IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU SAID, "YOUR CHILDREN ARE ALL RIGHT," WORDS TO THAT EFFECT?
A IT'S CERTAINLY POSSIBLE THAT I COULD HAVE SAID IT. I JUST DON'T RECALL SAYING IT.
Q I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND. IT'S BEEN SOMETIME, RIGHT?
ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN THEREAFTER, YOU THEN AT SOME POINT IN THE CONVERSATION SAID TO MR. SIMPSON THAT, "YOUR EX-WIFE, NICOLE HAD BEEN KILLED"; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND WHEN YOU SAID THAT, MR. SIMPSON BECAME VERY, VERY UPSET ON THE PHONE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, HE DID.
Q IN FACT, YESTERDAY, YOU SAID THAT HE BECAME UNDERSTANDABLY OR YOU EXPECTED THAT HE WOULD BE UPSET BY THIS INFORMATION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND IN BECOMING UPSET, HE SAID TO YOU, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED?" HE ASKED YOU THAT RIGHT OFF, DIDN'T HE? "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," HE SAID THAT?
A HE KEPT REPEATING HIMSELF AND TALKING TO HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AND OVER --
Q WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.
WELL, LOOK IN FRONT OF YOUR --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. CAN THE WITNESS BE PERMITTED TO FINISH HIS ANSWER?
MR. COCHRAN: I'M TRYING TO GET IT RESPONSIVE.
THE COURT: THERE WAS A SPECIFIC QUESTION. THAT WAS NOT RESPONSIVE TO THAT QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: IN REFERRING TO YOUR REPORT, IT SAYS, MR. SIMPSON REPLIED, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED?" DO YOU REMEMBER HIM SAYING THAT? YOU WROTE THAT IN YOUR REPORT?
A OKAY.
Q DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND WHEN HE SAID, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," DID YOU SAY, "MR. SIMPSON, I'M GOING TO TELL YOU ALL ABOUT THIS. I'M GOING TO TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED, HOW THE PEOPLE WERE KILLED"? YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT, DID YOU?
A I NEVER HAD A CHANCE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BUT YOU NEVER SAID THAT, DID YOU?
A I NEVER HAD A CHANCE AND NEVER SAID IT.
Q YOU NEVER SAID IT AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT POINT, DID YOU? YOU COULDN'T HAVE TOLD HIM?
A I DID NOT KNOW THE MEANS BY WHICH THEY HAD BEEN KILLED.
Q BECAUSE 45 MINUTES LATER, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THE CORONER, YOU SAID THEY MAY HAVE BEEN BLUDGEONED TO DEATH OR SHOT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I DIDN'T KNOW THE MEANS BY WHICH THEY HAD BEEN KILLED.
Q SO YOU NEVER RESPONDED TO MR. O.J. SIMPSON'S REQUEST, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED?"
AND IT IS YOUR STATEMENT THAT HE WAS UPSET AT THIS POINT; WAS HE NOT?
A YES, HE WAS.
Q AND YOU EXPECTED -- AND THEN HE WENT ON TO SAY, "OH, MY GOD, NICOLE IS DEAD. OH, MY GOD," AND HE CONTINUED REPEATING HIMSELF IN AN UPSET FASHION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, HE DID.
Q AND AT SOME POINT, DIDN'T YOU TRY TO GET HIM TO GET HOLD OF HIMSELF FROM AN EMOTIONAL STANDPOINT?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND HE KEPT REPEATING HIMSELF, "SHE'S BEEN KILLED? WHAT YOU DO MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED? OH, MY GOD, NICOLE IS DEAD," AND REPEATED HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q HE SEEMED TO BE VERY UPSET, RIGHT?
A RIGHT.
Q THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU HAD EVER TALKED TO HIM?
A YES.
Q YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD HAD ONLY ONE HOUR OF SLEEP THAT NIGHT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A NO IDEA.
Q YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAD AWAKENED HIM WITH THIS KIND OF INFORMATION, DO YOU?
A NO, I DON'T, SIR.
Q THEN YOU WENT ON TO SAY IN YOUR REPORT AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS, YOU TRIED TO TALK TO MR. SIMPSON. HOWEVER, FOR SEVERAL SECONDS, HE WAS REPEATING HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN ABOUT NICOLE BEING DEAD; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q HE SEEMED TO YOU TO BE STUNNED; DID HE NOT?
A SEEMED TO BE UPSET.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN IN YOUR REPORT, YOU INDICATE, "I FINALLY WAS ABLE TO TELL MR. SIMPSON THAT WE HAD HIS CHILDREN AT THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION." YOU SAID THAT AT SOME POINT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q THIS WAS AFTER HE WENT THROUGH BEING VERY UPSET ASKING THIS QUESTION AND TALKING IN -- REPEATING HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN?
A I FINALLY GOT HIM TO LISTEN TO ME AGAIN, YES.
Q NOW, YOU AS AN EXPERIENCED -- HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A LAPD OFFICER? 28 YEARS?
A 28 YEARS.
Q YOU'RE AN EXPERIENCED OFFICER?
A 28 YEARS.
Q AND YOU'VE HAD THIS TASK BEFORE, TO GIVE INFORMATION TO PEOPLE WHO'VE LOST A LOVED ONE; HAVE YOU NOT?
A FAR TOO MANY TIMES, YES.
Q AND IT'S ALWAYS A TOUGH SITUATION, ISN'T IT?
A YES, IT IS.
Q DIFFERENT PEOPLE REACT DIFFERENTLY, DON'T THEY?
A YES, THEY DO.
Q AND THERE'S NO BOOK ANYWHERE ABOUT HOW ANYBODY ACTS WHEN THEY GO INTO A STATE OF SHOCK; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I DON'T HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF HOW PEOPLE GO INTO A STATE OF SHOCK.
Q WHAT YOU TRY TO DO AS A TRAINED EXPERIENCED MEMBER OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT IS TO TRY TO BE AS SENSITIVE AS YOU CAN; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I TRY MY BEST.
Q ESPECIALLY IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE NOT EVEN SEEING THIS PERSON, ARE YOU?
A NO, I'M NOT.
Q YOU CAN'T SEE HIS FACE OR WHATEVER, CAN YOU?
A NO, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU'RE OVER A TELEPHONE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY YOUR POLICY IS MUCH BETTER; TO BE FACE TO FACE OR HAVE SOMEBODY FACE TO FACE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES. THAT'S THE POLICY. IF AT ALL PRACTICABLE, THAT'S THE POLICY.
Q AND WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT WOULD BE A LOT MORE ACCURATE FROM THE STANDPOINT OF DETERMINING HOW THE OTHER PERSON REACTED, WHEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE HIM LIKE YOU AND I ARE SEEING EACH OTHER RIGHT NOW; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I WOULD RATHER HAVE DONE IT IN PERSON, YES.
Q I UNDERSTAND.
NOW, BY THE WAY, THIS STATEMENT OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH MR. O.J. SIMPSON SHORTLY AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK ON JUNE 13TH WAS NOT TAPE-RECORDED, WAS IT?
A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
Q SO WE DON'T HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THAT BEING TAPE-RECORDED, DO YOU?
A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE WAS IT TAPE-RECORDED.
Q WELL, YOU WEREN'T TAPING IT, WERE YOU?
A I WASN'T.
Q AND HE WASN'T EXPECTING YOUR CALL. SO HE WASN'T TAPE-RECORDING ON THAT END, WAS HE?
A I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WAS TAPED, SIR.
Q OKAY.
YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OR SEEN A TAPE, HAVE YOU?
A NO, I HAVEN'T.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO WHEN YOU FINALLY WERE ABLE TO TELL MR. SIMPSON THAT "WE HAD HIS CHILDREN AT WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION," MR. SIMPSON THEN SAID, "WHY DO THE POLICE HAVE MY KIDS? WHERE ARE MY KIDS"; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN YOU THEN ADVISED MR. SIMPSON THAT "WE HAD TAKEN HIS CHILDREN TO THE STATION BECAUSE WE HAD NO ONE TO TURN HIS CHILDREN OVER TO," AND THAT WITHOUT PROMPTING, MR. SIMPSON TOLD YOU THAT HE WOULD IMMEDIATELY RETURN HOME TO LOS ANGELES AS SOON AS HE COULD GET A FLIGHT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q YOU THEN GAVE MR. SIMPSON YOUR PAGER AND STATION NUMBER SO HE COULD CALL BACK IF HE HAD ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A AND I EVEN BELIEVE MR. SIMPSON DID PAGE ME, BUT I NEVER GOT THE PAGE. IT WAS AT THE OFFICE.
Q AND YOU BECAME AWARE THAT HE DID PAGE YOU BACK AT SOME POINT?
A I HAD A NOTE ON MY DESK THAT I HAD RECEIVED A PAGE FROM MR. SIMPSON, YES.
Q BUT YOU NEVER CALLED HIM BACK, DID YOU, BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T GET THE PAGER -- YOU DIDN'T GET IT IN TIME, RIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q BUT YOU BECAME AWARE SOMETIME AFTER THIS MR. SIMPSON PAGED YOU TO TRY TO TALK TO YOU FURTHER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I DON'T KNOW WHY HE WAS PAGING ME. ALL I COULD TELL YOU, HE PAGED ME, PROBABLY WANTED TO TALK TO ME. I NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO HIM.
Q I UNDERSTAND.
BUT YOU AGREE WITH ME, WOULD YOU NOT, IF HE PAGED YOU AFTER YOU GAVE HIM THE PAGER NUMBER, HE PROBABLY WANTED TO TALK TO YOU? DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
A I WOULD IMAGINE SO.
Q OKAY.
AND WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE CHILDREN, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THE CHILDREN, MR. SIMPSON SAID TO YOU, "LET ME TALK TO MY DAUGHTER ARNELLE," DIDN'T HE, AT SOME POINT?
A YES, HE DID.
Q AND YOU THEN, BEING COOPERATIVE, YOU THEN GAVE THE PHONE TO HIS DAUGHTER ARNELLE WHO WAS ALSO UPSET THERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND SHE WAS CRYING, WASN'T SHE, ALSO?
A YES, SHE WAS.
Q AND THEN YOU THEN HEARD A CONVERSATION THAT WENT ON BETWEEN ARNELLE SPEAKING INTO THE PHONE TO HER FATHER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A WELL, SHE WAS TALKING TO HER FATHER, YES. I WASN'T PAYING TOO MUCH ATTENTION TO THE CONVERSATION.
Q BUT YOU COULD TELL SHE WAS TALKING INTO THE PHONE?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND YOU KNOW SHE WAS TALKING TO HER FATHER?
A YES, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO MR. SIMPSON IN THIS FIRST PART, WHEN HE WAS REPEATING HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND BEING VERY UPSET AND ASKING THE QUESTION, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," ARNELLE WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE, WASN'T SHE, RIGHT BEHIND YOU?
A AS I SAID, SHE WAS BEHIND ME TALKING TO DETECTIVE LANGE.
Q HOW MANY FEET WOULD YOU SAY SHE WAS AWAY FROM YOU?
A FIVE, SIX, SEVEN FEET, SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA.
Q SO CERTAINLY SHE WAS WITHIN HEARING DISTANCE?
A WELL, I THINK THAT'S WHY DETECTIVE LANGE WAS TALKING TO HER AT THE SAME TIME, BECAUSE SHE WAS OVERHEARING MY CONVERSATION TO HER FATHER.
Q SO I'M JUST TRYING TO ESTABLISH, SHE WAS WITHIN FIVE OR SIX FEET, WITHIN HEARING DISTANCE OF YOU WHEN YOU WERE TALKING AND WHEN LANGE WAS TALKING; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES, SIR.
Q OKAY, SIR.
SO THEN SHE HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HER FATHER AND SOME ARRANGEMENTS WERE MADE FOR HER TO PICK UP THE CHILDREN, AT LEAST UNTIL HE GETS BACK TO TOWN; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND DID SHE -- AFTER THAT CONVERSATION, DID SHE AND MR. A.C. COWLINGS THEN ARRANGE TO GO DOWN TO THE STATION AND PICK UP THE CHILDREN?
A MR. COWLINGS ARRIVED AND ARNELLE INTRODUCED ME TO HIM AND SAID THAT THEY WERE GOING TO PICK THEM UP. SO I CALLED SERGEANT -- ANOTHER SERGEANT AT THE STATION AND INFORMED THEM OF WHO WAS COMING TO THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION TO PICK THESE CHILDREN UP AND THAT IT WAS OKAY TO TURN THEM OVER TO THE PEOPLE THAT WERE COMING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
TO DIGRESS JUST FOR A MOMENT, WITH REGARD TO THE CHILDREN, THEY HAD BEEN DOWN AT THE STATION NOW FOR -- OH, APPROXIMATELY 12:40 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, SHORTLY AFTER MIDNIGHT, UNTIL SOMETIME AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND WERE YOU AWARE THAT THEY WERE BEING WATCHED BY SOME POLICE OFFICERS THERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
THE COURT: SPECULATION.
DO YOU KNOW?
THE WITNESS: I KNOW THEY WERE BEING CARED FOR, YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: CARED FOR? YES. THEY WERE BEING CARED FOR BY POLICE OFFICERS; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
ARE YOU AWARE THAT WHILE THOSE POLICE OFFICERS AT THAT STATION --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I COMPLETE THE QUESTION?
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WERE YOU AWARE THAT ONE OF THOSE POLICE OFFICERS AT THAT STATION --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. I WOULD ASK TO APPROACH.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE HAVE A SECOND? WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY SIDEBARS TODAY. NO, NO SIDEBARS. LET ME HAVE A MINUTE.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, WILL YOU CONFER?
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I CONFER WITH YOU?
THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU HAVE YOUR OWN SMALL SIDEBAR.
MR. COCHRAN: NO SIDEBARS.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: NO SIDEBARS TODAY, YOUR HONOR.
MS. CLARK: I'M TRYING.
THE COURT: WE ARE ALL TIRED. LET'S MOVE ALONG.
MR. COCHRAN: YES, WE ALL ARE.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WERE YOU AWARE THAT ONE OF THE POLICE OFFICERS AT WEST LOS ANGELES STATION WHILE THE CHILDREN WERE THERE HAD A CONVERSATION WITH THE OLDEST CHILD SIDNEY?
YOU CAN ANSWER THAT YES OR NO.
A I DON'T KNOW THAT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU DON'T KNOW?
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY REPORTS --
A NO.
Q -- OF THE REPORTED CONVERSATION?
A NO. I KNOW THEY WERE TALKED TO BY OFFICERS FOR SEVERAL HOURS AND THERE WAS MANY CONVERSATIONS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT CONVERSATION YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OR WHAT THOSE CONVERSATIONS WERE.
Q WELL, WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET INTO THE CONVERSATION AT THIS POINT. I JUST WANT TO KNOW IF YOU WERE AWARE OF ANY SPECIFIC CONVERSATION ABOUT WHICH THERE IS A POLICE REPORT.
A NO, SIR.
Q YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THAT REPORT?
A NO, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO AT SOME POINT THEN, BACK TO THE SITUATION WHEN MR. SIMPSON FINISHED SPEAKING WITH HIS DAUGHTER AND ARRANGEMENTS WERE MADE FOR THE CHILDREN TO BE PICKED UP, YOU DIDN'T TALK BACK TO HIM AT THAT POINT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A TALK TO WHO, SIR?
Q BACK TO MR. SIMPSON AT THAT POINT.
A NO, SIR.
Q THE PHONE WAS NOT HANDED BACK TO YOU, RIGHT?
A I BELIEVE SHE HUNG UP.
Q SHE HUNG UP THE PHONE, RIGHT?
ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU ASCERTAIN WHEN YOU GOT YOUR PAGE AND DO YOU STILL HAVE THAT LITTLE MESSAGE WHEN YOU GOT THE PAGE?
A LIKE I SAID, I GAVE HIM MY PAGER NUMBER. I ALSO GAVE HIM MY PHONE NUMBER AT THE OFFICE. AND WHEN I SAID I RECEIVED A PAGE, I WAS IN ERROR ON THAT BECAUSE I THINK HE CALLED THE STATION LOOKING FOR ME AT THE STATION BECAUSE THERE WAS A MESSAGE NOTE ON MY DESK THAT MR. SIMPSON HAD CALLED.
Q WELL, I'M JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT, DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT WAS APPROXIMATELY?
A I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA. I DON'T REMEMBER WHEN, IF THERE WAS EVEN A TIME WHEN THAT MESSAGE WAS TAKEN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
ALL YOU KNOW IS HE TRIED AND YOU CAN'T TELL US WHEN THAT WAS, RIGHT?
A HE TRIED, HE LEFT A MESSAGE.
Q AND YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT TIME IT WAS IS WHAT I'M ASKING.
A NO, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
FINE. NO PROBLEM.
NOW, THIS CONVERSATION THAT WE'VE JUST GONE THROUGH IN GREAT DETAIL NOW REGARDING MR. SIMPSON, HOW LONG DID THAT CONVERSATION LAST, THE TIME YOU FIRST STARTED TALKING TO HIM UNTIL THE TIME THAT YOU HANDED THE PHONE TO HIS DAUGHTER ARNELLE?
A JUST MY PART OF THE CONVERSATION. THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE ASKING ME?
Q WELL, THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION. THERE WERE PERIODS WHEN HE WAS VERY UPSET.
A THE WHOLE CONVERSATION BETWEEN HE AND ARNELLE OR --
Q NO.
A -- JUST MYSELF AND MR. SIMPSON?
Q JUST YOUR PART AND MR. SIMPSON, SIR.
A BECAUSE THAT PHONE CALL KEPT GOING ON WITH ARNELLE.
Q NOW, I AM TRYING TO FIND OUT THE PART BETWEEN PHILLIPS AND MR. O.J. SIMPSON.
A I WOULD SAY IT WAS LESS THAN A MINUTE, A MINUTE AT MOST.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN AFTER THAT, TO BREAK IT INTO SEQUENCE, HOW LONG WAS THE CONVERSATION WITH ARNELLE SIMPSON AND HER DAD BEFORE THE PHONE WAS HUNG UP?
A I HAVE NO IDEA. COUPLE MINUTES.
Q YOU MOVED ON TO OTHER THINGS AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN YOU NEVER TALKED TO O.J. SIMPSON AGAIN AFTER THAT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A NO, SIR.
Q NOW, AS AN EXPERIENCED DETECTIVE, YOU WERE ASKED A LOT OF QUESTIONS YESTERDAY BY MISS CLARK ABOUT DETAILS OF THIS OR WHATEVER.
YOU NEVER IN THAT CONVERSATION EVER MENTIONED THAT THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE KILLED, DID YOU? YOU NEVER MENTIONED THAT, DID YOU?
A NO, SIR.
Q YOU ONLY TALKED ABOUT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON; IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANY DETAILS ABOUT THE KILLING; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q YOU WOULDN'T HAVE SHARED ANY DETAILS ABOUT THE KILLING OF ANYBODY THAT ASKED YOU; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q EVEN IF YOU DID KNOW, RIGHT?
A RIGHT.
Q SO WHEN HE ASKED YOU THE QUESTION, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," YOU NEVER ANSWERED THAT OR YOU COULDN'T ANSWER IT ANYWAY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I NEVER HAD A CHANCE TO ANSWER IT AND I PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE TOLD HIM THAT ANYWAYS.
Q WELL, I HOPE YOU WOULDN'T. IT'S PART OF AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q NOW, IN THAT CONVERSATION, DIDN'T YOU THOUGH TOWARDS THE END OF THAT CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON SAY, "WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE LAST NIGHT"?
A NO, SIR.
Q DID YOU ASK HIM THAT?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q YOU NEVER ASKED HIM?
A I NEVER ASKED HIM THAT, SIR.
Q WELL, IN YOUR MIND, WAS HE A SUSPECT AT THAT POINT?
A NO, HE WAS NOT.
Q AND YOU NEVER ASKED HIM WHAT TIME HE LEFT LOS ANGELES?
A NEVER ASKED HIM WHAT TIME HE LEFT LOS ANGELES.
Q DO YOU RECALL HIM RESPONDING HE HAD TAKEN THE RED EYE OUT OF LOS ANGELES AT ABOUT 11:45? REMEMBER HIM SAYING THAT AT ANY POINT IN THE CONVERSATION?
A NO, SIR.
Q NOW, AFTER THIS CONVERSATION WE JUST FINISHED TALKING ABOUT, DID YOU SEE MARK FUHRMAN AT SOME POINT AFTER THAT -- THE CONVERSATION WITH MR. O.J. SIMPSON?
A YES.
Q AND WHERE DID YOU NEXT SEE HIM? WHAT ROOM WERE YOU IN WHEN YOU NEXT SAW MARK FUHRMAN?
A IN THE BREAKFAST AREA JUST OFF THE KITCHEN. I WAS STANDING BY THE DOORS OR JUST INSIDE THE DOORS.
Q THAT WAS STILL INSIDE THE HOUSE, IS THAT CORRECT, INSIDE THE --
A I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY MY POSITION, WHERE I WAS, BUT IT WAS AROUND THAT AREA.
Q CAN YOU POINT TO PEOPLE'S 66 FOR IDENTIFICATION, JUST SHOW THE JURY GENERALLY WHERE YOU WERE AT THAT POINT?
A SOMEWHERE IN THIS AREA (INDICATING).
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHO WERE YOU STANDING THERE WITH, IF ANYONE?
A MYSELF.
Q JUST YOU.
WHERE WAS LANGE AND VANNATTER AT THAT POINT, IF YOU KNOW?
A I BELIEVE I RECALL VANNATTER WAS TALKING TO MR. KAELIN AND I BELIEVE TOM LANGE WAS STILL TALKING TO ARNELLE SIMPSON.
Q DID KAELIN COME IN THE HOUSE AT SOME TIME DURING THE TIME YOU WERE TALKING TO MR. O.J. SIMPSON?
A I SAW HIM IN THE HOUSE, YES.
Q SO WOULD HE -- WOULD KATO KAELIN HAVE BEEN WITHIN EARSHOT OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH O.J. SIMPSON? THE FIRST MINUTE OR SO CONVERSATION WHEN YOU WERE TALKING WITH MR. SIMPSON, WAS HE IN THAT HOUSE THEN?
A NO. I THINK HE WAS IN ANOTHER ROOM JUST ADJACENT TO THE KITCHEN WHICH I THINK WAS CALLED THE BAR AREA OR SOMETHING. HE WAS SITTING AT A STOOL OR A BENCH OR SOMETHING IN THAT ROOM.
Q AND HOW FAR WAS THAT AWAY FROM WHERE YOU WERE HAVING THIS PHONE CONVERSATION?
A I DON'T REALLY REMEMBER THE --
Q WELL, YOUR BEST ESTIMATE.
A 15 FEET?
Q SO HE WAS WITHIN EARSHOT OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IF HE WANTED TO LISTEN; IS THAT RIGHT?
A DEPENDING ON HOW LOUD I WAS TALKING AND HOW WELL HE WAS LISTENING, HE PROBABLY COULD HAVE HEARD.
Q WELL, LET'S SEE NOW.
I'M ABOUT -- HOW FAR FROM YOU AM I?
A I WOULD PROBABLY SAY WE'RE PROBABLY 15 FEET AGAIN.
Q RIGHT.
SO YOU CAN HEAR ME, I CAN HEAR YOU?
A YES, SIR.
Q OKAY.
SO ABOUT THAT DISTANCE; IS THAT CORRECT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT DOESN'T -- THE FACT THEY CAN HEAR EACH OTHER IN THESE CONDITIONS, WHEN THE COURTROOM IS QUIET, NOTHING ELSE IS GOING ON IS IRRELEVANT WITH MICROPHONES.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE JURY CAN TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION.
MR. COCHRAN: THE JURY HAS EXPERIENCE IN THAT.
THE COURT: THE JURY IS AWARE OF WHAT THE SCENE IS. THE JURY HAS BEEN IN THE KITCHEN.
MS. CLARK: BUT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, HE'S IN THE COURTROOM SPEAKING ON A MICROPHONE. SO IS COUNSEL. THEY WEREN'T SPEAKING ON MICROPHONES THERE.
THE COURT: THE JURY CAN SEE THE MICROPHONE. THE JURY CAN SEE THE MICROPHONE. THEY CAN SEE THE DISTANCE. THEY HAVE THEIR COMMON SENSE AS WE KNOW, RIGHT?
THE JURY: RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: SO STIPULATED, YOUR HONOR.
NO SIDEBARS.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: WELL, CONTINUE.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ABOUT 15 FEET AWAY FROM YOU, KATO KAELIN WAS SEATED AT A BAR AREA, RIGHT?
A GIVE OR TAKE A FEW FEET.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, TELL US WHO ELSE WAS IN THAT ROOM AT THE TIME OF THE CONVERSATION WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO O.J. SIMPSON.
WE NOW KNOW KATO KAELIN WAS 15 FEET AWAY. ARNELLE SIMPSON --
A IN ANOTHER ROOM.
Q OKAY.
ANOTHER ROOM 15 FEET AWAY.
ARNELLE SIMPSON WAS MAYBE FIVE OR SIX FEET BEHIND YOU TALKING TO TOM LANGE, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q VANNATTER WAS IN THE ROOM SOMEWHERE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I DON'T KNOW WHERE VANNATTER WAS AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
ANYBODY ELSE IN THAT ROOM AT THAT TIME THAT YOU KNOW OF?
A DID YOU MENTION TOM LANGE?
Q YES. LANGE WAS TALKING TO ARNELLE?
A RIGHT, AND MYSELF.
Q OKAY.
ALL RIGHT.
AT SOME POINT THEN, WHEN YOU MOVED OUT BY THE DOORS NEAR THE FRONT OF THE PROPERTY THERE THAT YOU DEPICTED ON PEOPLE'S 66, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH MARK FUHRMAN?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND NOW, MARK FUHRMAN CAME UP TO YOU AND TOLD YOU HE HAD MADE SOME DISCOVERY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND SO THAT WE'RE CLEAR, IT WAS MARK FUHRMAN WHO ALLEGEDLY FOUND THIS GLOVE OUT THERE NEAR KATO KAELIN'S ROOM, IS THAT CORRECT, OUTSIDE?
A YES.
Q AND IT WAS MARK FUHRMAN WHO ALLEGEDLY FOUND THIS SPOT ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE BRONCO; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q IT WAS MARK FUHRMAN WHO CLIMBED OVER THE WALL, LET THE TWO OF YOU -- THE REST OF YOU IN; IS THAT RIGHT?
A THE THREE OF US IN, YES.
Q THE THREE OF YOU IN.
AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE FIRST TIME HE MADE YOU AWARE OF THIS ALLEGED DISCOVERY WAS WHEN YOU WERE STANDING THERE INSIDE THE SIMPSON PREMISES AFTER THE PHONE CONVERSATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
THE COURT: WANT TO REPHRASE THE QUESTION? WHICH DISCOVERY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WITH REGARD TO THE GLOVE, WHERE WERE YOU WHEN MARK FUHRMAN APPROACHED YOU AND TALKED TO YOU ABOUT HIS ALLEGED DISCOVERY OF THE GLOVE?
A AS I STATED BEFORE, IN THAT BREAKFAST AREA OFF THE KITCHEN SOMEWHERE RIGHT AROUND THE DOORWAY. I WAS EITHER STANDING INSIDE OR OUTSIDE. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHERE I WAS STANDING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND HE APPROACHED YOU AND HE HAD SOME CONVERSATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND DID HE AT THAT TIME APPROACH VANNATTER AND LANGE WHO WERE NOW THE DETECTIVES ON THE CASE AND TALK TO THEM AT THAT POINT?
A NO. THEY WERE BACK INSIDE THE HOUSE IN THE KITCHEN.
Q I UNDERSTAND THEY WERE IN THE HOUSE. BUT THE QUESTION WAS, DID HE APPROACH THEM AND GO AND TELL THEM ABOUT WHAT HE ALLEGEDLY FOUND?
A NO.
Q HE JUST TOLD YOU AT THIS POINT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND THEN BASED UPON WHAT HE TOLD YOU, IS THAT WHEN YOU CAME AROUND AND WENT OUTSIDE ON THE ROUTE THAT YOU WERE HELPED WITH -- MR. FAIRTLOUGH -- WHERE YOU KIND OF -- WHERE YOU BUMPED INTO THE WALLS HERE (INDICATING)?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU CAME OUTSIDE THIS DOOR HERE ON PEOPLE'S 66, YOU WALKED AROUND DOWN THIS NARROW AREA DOWN HERE TO THE AREA NEAR THIS WHAT'S MARKED "AIR CONDITIONER" (INDICATING); IS THAT RIGHT?
A HE TOLD ME HE WANTED TO SHOW ME SOMETHING AND THAT'S THE ROUTE WE TOOK.
Q FUHRMAN TOLD YOU HE WANTED TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING AND HE TOOK YOU DOWN THIS PARTICULAR ROUTE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q WHAT TIME OF THE MORNING WAS THAT?
A WELL, I WOULD HAVE TO SAY SOMEWHERE AROUND 6:10, 6:15. IT WAS AFTER THE PHONE CONVERSATION WAS MADE AT 6:05.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO WITHIN FIVE MINUTES OR SO OF THAT, FIVE OR 10 MINUTES?
A SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA.
Q THE TWO OF YOU THEN WALKED BACK HERE UNTIL YOU OBSERVED WHAT COUNSEL ASKED YOU ABOUT YESTERDAY, THIS GLOVE THAT WAS SUPPOSEDLY ON THAT WALKWAY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q BY THE WAY, WHEN YOU WALKED BACK THAT WAY, DID YOU NOTICE THAT THERE WERE BERRIES BACK THERE ALSO IN THIS AREA? REMEMBER SEEING -- I'M INTO BERRIES. SO BEAR WITH ME.
DID YOU NOTICE BERRIES BACK THERE ON THAT WALKWAY?
THE COURT: YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID THAT, MR. COCHRAN. PEOPLE ARE GOING TO START SENDING YOU BERRIES.
MR. COCHRAN: NO. PLEASE DON'T.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU NOTICE BERRIES BACK ON THAT WALKWAY?
A I KNOW THERE WAS A LOT OF DEBRIS. THERE WAS LEAVES, THERE WAS TWIGS, THERE WAS A LOT OF DEBRIS FROM PLANTS AND SO FORTH. TO TELL YOU THAT I REMEMBER A BERRY BEING BACK THERE, I DO NOT REMEMBER ANY BERRIES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU WERE LOOKING AT OTHER THINGS.
AND I WANT TO SHOW YOU A PICTURE. I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THAT -- I'M GOING TO SHOW THIS TO COUNSEL FIRST.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
THE COURT: MISS ROBERTSON, WHAT'S THE NEXT EXHIBIT?
THE CLERK: 1025.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THESE TWO PHOTOGRAPHS AFTER I CONFIRM WITH COUNSEL.
THE COURT: 1025.
MR. COCHRAN: I WILL MARK THE FIRST ONE 1025. AND I'VE SHOWN THOSE TO COUNSEL. AND I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THE NEXT ONE 1026.
(DEFT'S 1025 AND 1026 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPHS)
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU WHAT I HAVE SHOWN TO COUNSEL HERE AS DEFENDANT'S NEXT IN ORDER, 1025 AND 1026.
I WOULD LIKE TO PLACE FIRST BEFORE YOU EXHIBIT -- DEFENSE EXHIBIT 1025 AND ASK YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT AND SEE WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS A FAIR REPRESENTATION OF THE WAY THIS GLOVE WAS ALLEGEDLY FOUND ON THE EARLY MORNING HOURS AT ABOUT 6:15 ON JUNE 13TH, 1994.
A WELL, IT'S A LOT CLOSER THAN I EVER GOT TO IT, BUT I WOULD SAY THAT THAT'S AS CLOSE AS I CAN REMEMBER WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE FROM THE THREE OR FOUR FEET I GOT TO IT.
Q AND AS YOU -- YOU GOT WITHIN THREE OR FOUR FEET OF IT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AS YOU LOOKED AT THAT PARTICULAR GLOVE, DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD OR ANYTHING AROUND THE GLOVE?
A I NEVER GOT CLOSE ENOUGH TO IT TO REALLY EXAMINE IT, SIR. I JUST LOOKED AT IT AND SAID, "WELL, YOU OUGHT TO INFORM VANNATTER AND LANGE OF THIS," AND WE WALKED BACK -- I DID NOT WALK UP TO IT AND EXAMINE IT.
Q YOU GOT WITHIN THREE OR FOUR FEET OF IT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD DROPS OR ANYTHING LEADING TO THAT GLOVE ON THE FOLIAGE THAT'S THERE DEPICTED IN DEFENDANT'S 1025?
A I DID NOT NOTICE ANY.
Q AND WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE BACK THERE AT THAT TIME AT 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING THROUGH NATURAL LIGHT OR DID YOU HAVE TO USE YOUR FLASHLIGHTS?
A WE USED A FLASHLIGHT AS I SAID, BECAUSE THE FOLIAGE WAS KEEPING THIS AREA DARKER THAN WAS DIRECT SUNLIGHT OR DIRECT, YOU KNOW, DAWN COMING UP. SO IT WAS DARKER THAN LET'S SAY IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE WHERE THERE WERE NO TREES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO IT WAS DARK STILL ON THE SIDE OF THAT HOUSE.
DID YOU USE YOUR FLASHLIGHT ON SOMEONE ELSE'S FLASHLIGHT?
A I HAD MY OWN.
Q YOU GOT WITHIN FOUR OR FIVE FEET AWAY, YOU SHINED YOUR FLASHLIGHT AND THIS IS BASICALLY WHAT YOU SAW; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q IN 1025?
A SAW A GLOVE LYING THERE.
Q THERE WAS A FENCE TO THE SIDE OF THIS KIND OF NARROW WALKWAY? IT'S A NARROW WALKWAY; IS IT NOT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND THERE'S A FENCE NEXT TO IT, KIND OF -- HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT FENCE?
A CYCLONE CHAIN LINK FENCE.
Q DID IT HAVE LIKE A WIRE THING ACROSS THE TOP OF IT? REMEMBER LOOKING AT THE TOP OF THAT FENCE?
THE COURT: A WIRE THING ACROSS?
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S PROBABLY NOT VERY ARTFULLY DESCRIBED, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WAS IT A TYPICAL CHAIN LINK FENCE THAT HAS LIKE POINTED WIRES ON THE TOP OF THE FENCE?
THE COURT: YOU MEAN THE TWISTS AT THE TOP?
MR. COCHRAN: YES. THE TWISTS, YOUR HONOR, TWISTED WIRES AT THE TOP.
THE COURT: THE THING THAT MAKES IT HARDER TO CLIMB OVER.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S RIGHT, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: I COULD PROBABLY SAVE YOU A LOT OF TROUBLE BY TELLING YOU I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL THAT DESCRIPTION AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER?
A I DIDN'T WANT TO INTERRUPT YOU AND THE JUDGE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU DON'T REMEMBER.
IT WAS A CHAIN LINK FENCE, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q IN ADDITION TO THAT, SEE THIS BLUE OBJECT HERE? REMEMBER SEEING THAT WHEN YOU SHINED YOUR FLASHLIGHT DOWN THERE?
A NO, SIR.
Q YOU NEVER SAW THAT BLUE OBJECT AT ALL?
A NO.
Q WERE YOU EVER AWARE WHETHER OR NOT THAT OBJECT WAS BOOKED AT ALL IN EVIDENCE?
A I BELIEVE I WAS TOLD THAT IT WAS. I DID NOT SEE IT THAT MORNING.
Q AND I AM GOING TO SHOW YOU NOW 1026. AND FROM WHAT YOU'VE SAID, THERE IS AN EVIDENCE MARKER BY 1026. IS THAT A FURTHER INDICATION THAT BLUE OBJECT WAS BOOKED AT SOME POINT?
A I WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME THAT IT WAS BOOKED, YES.
Q AND IN 1026, IS THAT A PRETTY FAIR APPROXIMATION OF THE WAY THE FOLIAGE -- THAT THAT GROUND WAS PRETTY MUCH COVERED WITH FOLIAGE BACK THERE?
A YEAH. THAT'S HOW MOST OF THE AREA LOOKED BACK THERE. ALL HAD LEAVES AND DEBRIS ON THE GROUND FROM THE FOLIAGE AND THE TREE.
Q FROM THE TREES FALLING DOWN, RIGHT?
A YES, SIR.
Q IT'S A FAIRLY ACCURATE PHOTOGRAPH THEN.
NOW, SO --
THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. MR. COCHRAN, DO YOU WANT TO SHOW THOSE TO THE JURY ON THE ELMO?
MR. COCHRAN: YES, I WOULD LIKE TO, YOUR HONOR. IF COUNSEL HAS NO OBJECTION, I'LL PUT IT ON THE ELMO. WHATEVER THE COURT'S PLEASURE. WHATEVER YOUR PLEASURE. I CAN JUST PASS THEM. SHALL I PASS THEM?
THE COURT: LET'S USE THE ELMO.
MR. COCHRAN: ELMO? FINE.
FIRST OF ALL, WE'LL SHOW WHAT THE OFFICER'S BEEN DESCRIBING, YOUR HONOR, AS 1025, DEFENDANT'S 1025.
THE COURT: I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY THE OTHER WAY, ISN'T IT?
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK IT'S THE OTHER WAY.
THE COURT: THE FENCE IS TO THE RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: YEAH.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS A FAIR APPROXIMATION OF WHAT YOU SAW WHEN YOU GOT WITHIN FOUR TO FIVE FEET WITH YOUR FLASHLIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND YOU WERE FOUR TO FIVE FEET IN FRONT OF THIS --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY. I THOUGHT THE WITNESS SAID THREE TO FOUR.
MR. COCHRAN: FOUR TO FIVE. HE SAID FOUR TO FIVE.
THE WITNESS: I SAID THREE TO FOUR:
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: THREE TO FOUR?
WHAT DID YOU SAY?
A THREE TO FOUR.
Q ALL RIGHT. THREE TO FOUR.
AND THE BLUE OBJECT TO THE RIGHT, YOU HAD NOT SEEN THAT THAT MORNING?
A I HAD NOT SEEN IT.
Q AND THERE'S THE CHAIN LINK FENCE TO THE RIGHT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: AND 1026, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND AGAIN, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, 1026 AGAIN IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE CHAIN LINK FENCE WITH SOME KIND OF A CARD NUMBERING WHICH LED YOU TO BELIEVE THAT BLUE OBJECT WAS SOMEHOW BOOKED INTO EVIDENCE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, SO AFTER YOU MADE THESE OBSERVATIONS -- BY THE WAY, DID YOU -- STRIKE THAT.
WHILE YOU WERE THERE, DID YOU EVER GET CLOSER THAN THE THREE OR FOUR FEET AND EVER REACH DOWN AND TRY TO PICK THIS ITEM UP?
A I NEVER WENT BACK THERE AGAIN, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, AFTER YOU -- FUHRMAN DECIDED TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT FIRST, DID YOU THEN WALK BACK INTO THE HOUSE WITH HIM AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU SEE HIM GO AND TALK TO ANY OTHER POLICE OFFICERS THAT MORNING?
A I BELIEVE I SAW HIM WALK UP TO VANNATTER AT THAT TIME AND --
Q ALL RIGHT.
WITHOUT TELLING US WHAT HE SAID TO VANNATTER, AFTER, DID HE HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH VANNATTER? DID FUHRMAN HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH VANNATTER?
A YES.
Q AND DID AT SOME POINT YOU SEE VANNATTER LEAVE THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE AND GO SOMEPLACE?
A WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YES.
Q WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
DID YOU GO ALONG WITH HIM?
A NO, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HOW LONG WERE THEY GONE, IF YOU KNOW?
A I DIDN'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO IT. I WOULD SAY MAYBE FIVE MINUTES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN AT SOME POINT, DID YOU SEE VANNATTER COME BACK?
A YES, SIR.
Q DID YOU SEE AT SOME POINT FUHRMAN TALK TO DETECTIVE LANGE?
A YES.
Q AND DID AT SOME POINT LANGE AND FUHRMAN LEAVE YOUR PRESENCE?
A YES.
Q DID YOU STAY IN THE HOUSE DURING THIS TIME?
A I THINK I WAS OUT IN THE FRONT STANDING AROUND.
Q ALL RIGHT.
JUST STANDING AROUND?
A JUST STANDING AROUND.
Q YOU DID A LOT OF THAT THAT MORNING, DIDN'T YOU?
A DID IT ALL DAY.
Q DID LANGE AND FUHRMAN LEAVE YOUR PRESENCE AT SOME POINT? WERE THEY ABLE TO LEAVE YOUR SIDE?
A YES, SIR.
Q DID YOU SEE THEM COME BACK AT SOME POINT?
A YES, SIR.
Q WAS THERE A PHOTOGRAPHER THERE AT THAT POINT? WAS MR. ROKAHR, THE PHOTOGRAPHER, THERE AT THAT POINT?
A NO, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, AFTER THAT, AFTER LANGE AND FUHRMAN CAME BACK, HOW MUCH LONGER DID YOU REMAIN AT THIS ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE BEFORE YOU LEFT?
A JUST A FEW MINUTES.
Q AND YOU WERE STANDING OUTSIDE, AND AT SOME POINT YOU LEFT. DID YOU LEAVE WITH FUHRMAN IN THE SAME VEHICLE YOU CAME IN?
A YES, SIR.
Q BY THE TIME YOU LEFT, HAD OFFICERS GONZALEZ AND ASHTON ARRIVED, THE MOTOR OFFICERS IN THE BLACK AND WHITE VEHICLE? HAD THEY ARRIVED AT THAT POINT?
A THE MOTOR OFFICERS?
Q NOT THE MOTOR OFFICERS. THE BLACK AND WHITE PATROL OFFICERS.
A YES.
Q AND YOU HAD ASKED THAT THEY COME OVER THERE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THEY HAD ARRIVED BEFORE WE EVER ENTERED THE ESTATE.
Q THEY WERE THERE BEFORE FUHRMAN CLIMBED OVER THE WALL, RIGHT?
A YES, SIR.
Q WERE THEY OUTSIDE OR WERE THEY INSIDE AT THIS POINT?
A OUTSIDE.
Q WHEN YOU SAY OUTSIDE, THEY WERE OUTSIDE ON THE STREET STILL?
A YES, SIR. THEIR POSITION WAS TO WATCH THE BRONCO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID THEY -- THEY DIDN'T COME INSIDE THE HOUSE AT THAT POINT?
A I DIDN'T -- I NEVER SAW THEM GO INTO THE HOUSE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BY THIS POINT, WHEN YOU WERE OUTSIDE, AFTER LANGE AND FUHRMAN WENT SOMEPLACE, HAD MR. A.C. COWLINGS ARRIVED YET?
A I DON'T REMEMBER WHEN A.C. COWLINGS ARRIVED. I KNOW HE ARRIVED SHORTLY AFTER ARNELLE HAD CALLED HIM, BUT IF HE ARRIVED WHILE THIS WAS GOING ON OR AFTER THIS WAS GOING ON OR DURING THIS WAS GOING ON, I CAN'T REMEMBER.
Q LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.
DID MR. COWLINGS ARRIVE BEFORE YOU LEFT TO GO BACK TO BUNDY?
A YES, SIR. AS I SAID, ARNELLE INTRODUCED ME TO HIM AND I MADE THE PHONE CALL THAT THEY SHOULD PICK UP THE CHILDREN.
Q SO AT ANY RATE, HE ARRIVED BEFORE YOU LEFT. AND WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE?
A I WOULD IMAGINE WE LEFT SOMEWHERE AROUND 6:30.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO HE WAS THERE BEFORE THAT TIME; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN YOU MENTIONED THAT OFFICERS ASHTON AND GONZALEZ WERE WATCHING THE BRONCO; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q WAS THE BRONCO IMPOUNDED AT THAT POINT?
A IT WAS NOT IMPOUNDED, NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND SO THEY WERE JUST STANDING THERE WATCHING IT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THEY KEPT PEOPLE AWAY FROM THAT BRONCO?
A I HAVE NO IDEA. I LEFT THE LOCATION.
Q SO YOU -- HAD YOU EVER SEEN ANY PICTURES OF PEOPLE PEERING IN THE WINDOW OF THAT BRONCO?
A NO, SIR.
Q NEVER SEEN SUCH A PICTURE?
A I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY PICTURES OTHER THAN WHAT I'VE SEEN IN COURT, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN YOU LEFT, THEY WERE STILL OUTSIDE WHERE THE BRONCO WAS AND YOU AND MARK FUHRMAN LEFT AND THEN WENT BACK WHERE?
A TO BUNDY.
Q AND YOU ARRIVED BACK AT BUNDY AT ABOUT WHAT TIME?
A WITHIN FIVE MINUTES AFTER LEAVING.
Q AND WHAT TIME DID YOU GET BACK?
A I WOULD SAY WE GOT BACK SOMEWHERE AROUND 6:35.
Q WELL, IN LOOKING AT THE LOG HERE -- AND I THINK WE MAY HAVE COVERED THIS BRIEFLY -- THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT YOU EVER LEFT --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT YOU EVER LEFT BUNDY TO GO TO ROCKINGHAM, IS THERE?
A NO, THERE'S NOT.
Q THAT WAS YOUR FAULT, WASN'T IT?
A YES, IT WAS.
Q SO WE KNOW YOU GOT BACK THEN BY 6:40, SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA, 6:45; IS THAT RIGHT?
A 6:35.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU CHECK IN WITH CUMMINGS AT THAT POINT?
A NO, I DIDN'T.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN YOU WENT BACK OVER THERE, YOU JUST CONTINUED STANDING AROUND?
A I WALKED OVER TO THE LIEUTENANTS AND THE CAPTAINS TO LET THEM KNOW WHAT HAD HAPPENED UP AT ROCKINGHAM AND --
Q WERE THEY STILL JUST STANDING AROUND?
A YES, SIR.
Q THERE WAS A LOT OF STANDING AROUND.
I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU IF YOU WOULD HELP US WITH THE NUMBER OF OFFICERS WHO WERE THERE STANDING AROUND AND FROM THE TIME THEY GOT THERE.
CAN WE DO THAT?
A WELL, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT THE OFFICERS WERE DOING. AS FAR AS STANDING AROUND, EVERYBODY WAS AT A FIXED POST GUARDING THE CRIME SCENE.
WHEN I SAY PEOPLE THAT I WALKED UP TO STANDING AROUND, THIS WAS MY SUPERVISOR AND THE COMMANDING OFFICER OF THE DIVISION THAT WE HAD NOT ASSIGNED TO A FIXED POST TO GUARD SOMETHING.
Q OKAY.
SO WHEN YOU SAID GUARD SOMETHING, WERE THEY GUARDING THIS TAPE THAT WAS AROUND THE PERIMETER THERE?
A WELL, BOTH ENDS OF THE ALLEY, BOTH ENDS OF THE STREET IN FRONT OF THE LOCATION.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, FROM THE TIME RISKE GOT THERE AT 12:15, THE TIME YOU GOT BACK AT 6:35 OR THEREABOUTS, HOW MANY OFFICERS WOULD YOU ESTIMATE FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT WERE IN AND AROUND THAT BUNDY SCENE DURING THAT TIME FRAME? WOULD THE LOG ASSIST YOU --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: LET ME FINISH THE QUESTION.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WOULD THE LOG ASSIST YOU IN DETERMINING THAT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. COMPOUND AND IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: COMPOUND.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: I'M GOING TO APPROACH AND ASK YOU TO LOOK WITH ME IN THE LOG AND SEE IF WE CAN DETERMINE HOW MANY POLICE OFFICERS HAD COME OUT TO THE SCENE THERE BETWEEN 12:15, RISKE'S ARRIVAL, AND THE TIME THAT YOU GOT BACK, YOU AND FUHRMAN GOT BACK THERE AT 6:35.
WHY DON'T YOU READ IT TO YOURSELF AND SEE IF YOU CAN COUNT THEM UP AS BEST AS YOU RECALL.
A NOT COUNTING DETECTIVES.
Q LET'S COUNT THE DETECTIVES TOO. THEY'RE ALL LAPD OFFICERS. LET'S COUNT EVERYBODY.
A PROBABLY 28.
Q ABOUT 28 POLICE OFFICERS?
AND BASICALLY AT THIS POINT, WERE THESE 28 OFFICERS -- AT 6:35, THE FIRST CALL, THE CORONER HAD NOT GONE OUT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q CRIMINALIST HAD NOT BEEN CALLED?
A I DON'T KNOW THAT.
Q WELL, LET'S LOOK AT THIS AND LET'S SEE THE LOG WHEN FUNG WAS CALLED.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION TO THE LOG. THAT WOULD NOT REFLECT --
THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW. THAT WOULD ONLY TELL US WHEN HE ARRIVED, SIR. IT WOULDN'T TELL ME WHEN HE CALLED.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
COUNSEL IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: LET'S LOOK AND SEE WHEN FUNG ARRIVED.
MS. CLARK: WELL, OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S ONLY AS TO BUNDY.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, I WANT TO SEE -- I'M TALKING ABOUT BUNDY AT THIS POINT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
OVERRULED.
MR. COCHRAN: I'M TALKING ABOUT BUNDY.
MS. CLARK: MAY I IMPOSE ANOTHER OBJECTION? THIS WITNESS -- COUNSEL IS ATTEMPTING TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION. THERE'S NO INDICATION HE EVER KNEW. THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT WITNESS FOR THIS TESTIMONY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. OVERRULED.
IF HE CAN REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION FROM THIS, YES OR NO.
THE WITNESS: WELL, I BELIEVE THE FIRST TIME IT SHOWS HIM ON THE LOG IS --
THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: WAIT.
DO YOU KNOW FROM YOUR OWN RECOLLECTION WHEN THE CRIMINALIST, MR. FUNG, ARRIVED AT THE BUNDY ADDRESS?
THE WITNESS: NO, I DON'T.
THE COURT: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
THE WITNESS: ONLY IN WHAT IT SAYS, THAT HE ARRIVED --
THE COURT: NO. I'M NOT ASKING YOU WHAT THE DOCUMENT SAYS. I'M ASKING YOU, DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
THE WITNESS: NO.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
NEXT QUESTION.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DID FUNG EVER COME WHILE YOU WERE THERE AT 10:00 O'CLOCK THAT MORNING?
A I SAW MR. FUNG THERE DURING THAT DAYTIME, YES. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT I FIRST SAW HIM.
Q BUT YOU WERE THERE OFF AND ON DURING THE DAY, RIGHT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND YOU LEFT, ACCORDING TO THE LOG, BY 10:00 O'CLOCK A.M. TO GO SOMEPLACE, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q FUNG HAD NOT ARRIVED AT THAT POINT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I DON'T RECALL SEEING HIM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BUT YOU SAW HIM LATER IN THE DAY WHEN YOU CAME BACK TO THE LOCATION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q BECAUSE THE CORONER CAME AT ABOUT 9:10;
ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN THE CORONER CAME, FUNG WAS NOT THERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I DON'T KNOW IF FUNG WAS THERE.
Q YOU DON'T REMEMBER SEEING HIM, DO YOU?
A I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING HIM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THESE 28 LAPD OFFICERS WHO WERE THERE THOUGH, THEY HAD VARIOUS AND SUNDRY RESPONSIBILITIES; IS THAT CORRECT?
A MOST OF THEM DID.
Q IN THE COURSE OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU TALKED TO THAT MORNING, DID YOU EVER, EITHER WHEN YOU CAME BACK AT 6:35 OR EARLIER, TALK TO ANY OF THE OFFICERS THERE ABOUT TRYING TO ESTABLISH THE TIME OF DEATH OF THESE TWO BODIES?
A NO, SIR.
Q NOW, WHEN YOU CAME BACK THAT AFTERNOON, DID YOU SEE MISS MARCIA CLARK AT THE SCENE THERE AT BUNDY OR ROCKINGHAM -- AT BUNDY?
A I DON'T RECALL IF I EVER SAW MISS CLARK AT THE BUNDY LOCATION. I BELIEVE I MAY HAVE SEEN HER AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION.
Q WELL, WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO LOOK AT THE CRIME SCENE LOG REGARDING BUNDY?
A NO, SIR.
Q THAT WON'T REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
A I DON'T RECALL SEEING MARCIA CLARK AT THE BUNDY LOCATION.
Q DO YOU EVER RECALL SEEING HER THERE TALKING TO MARK FUHRMAN OUTSIDE?
A AT THE BUNDY LOCATION?
Q AT ROCKINGHAM. DID YOU SEE --
A AS I SAID, I SAW HER AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION, NOT AT THE BUNDY LOCATION.
Q OKAY.
ALL RIGHT.
WHAT TIME WAS THAT THAT YOU SAW HER AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION?
A I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA, REMEMBERING THAT TIME.
Q WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION SEEING THE CRIME SCENE LOG REGARDING THAT?
A NO. IT WOULD NOT TELL ME WHAT TIME I SAW THEM.
Q BUT YOU REMEMBER SEEING HER; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q NOW, DO YOU KNOW -- ALTHOUGH I KNOW YOU WERE NO LONGER THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER ON THE CASE -- HOW LONG THAT THE BUNDY LOCATION REMAINED A CRIME SCENE BEFORE THE TAPES WERE TAKEN DOWN?
A YES. I THINK IT WAS RIGHT AROUND -- THAT I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE LOG TO BE SURE, BUT I THINK IT WAS AROUND 3:00 TO 3:30 IN THE AFTERNOON.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO SEE THE LOG?
A YES, SIR.
Q I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LOOK AT THE LOG FIRST, TELL US HOW LONG IT REMAINED AT THE CRIME SCENE. SEE IF THAT REFRESHES YOUR RECOLLECTION, SIR.
A WELL, IT'S 3 SOMETHING IN THE AFTERNOON. IT'S NOT VERY CLEAR. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S -- I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THOSE NUMBERS ARE.
1500 IS 3:00 IN THE AFTERNOON. SO IT WAS AFTER THAT.
Q DOES THAT COMFORT WITH YOUR MEMORY, SOMETIME AFTER 3:00 O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN IT WAS NO LONGER A CRIME SCENE, TELL US WHAT THAT MEANS.
A MEANS THAT THE YELLOW TAPE IS TAKEN DOWN, IT'S NO LONGER AN LAPD CRIME SCENE AND WE NO LONGER HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT. IT'S -- BASICALLY WE LEAVE IT.
Q AND PEOPLE ARE FREE TO COME AND GO AT THAT SCENE AT THAT POINT?
A YES. WE NO LONGER HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER THAT CRIME SCENE.
Q AND IF EVIDENCE HAD NOT BEEN GATHERED BY THAT POINT, THERE'S A GREAT CHANCE THAT EVIDENCE COULD BE SOMEHOW COMPROMISED --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. CALLING FOR SPECULATION.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, LET ME FINISH THE QUESTION. MAYBE SHE WON'T OBJECT. I DOUBT IT, BUT LET ME SEE.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: IF THE CRIME SCENE WAS DETERMINED NOT TO BE A CRIME SCENE SOMETIME AFTER 3:00 O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON AND IF EVIDENCE HAD NOT BEEN COLLECTED BY THAT POINT, WAS COLLECTED LET'S SAY THREE WEEKS LATER ON JULY 3RD, THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE, IS IT NOT, THAT THAT EVIDENCE MAY HAVE BEEN COMPROMISED BY PEOPLE WHO WERE FREE TO COME AND GO ON THOSE PREMISES AFTER THE CRIME SCENE WAS RELEASED?
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DO YOU KNOW WHEN THE BLOOD WAS WASHED AWAY OR WASHED DOWN FROM THIS PARTICULAR CRIME SCENE?
A NO, SIR.
Q NOW, YOU DESCRIBED I THINK YESTERDAY THAT AT SOME POINT, THE PRESS APPEARED OUT THERE ABOUT 7:30 IN THE MORNING, IS THAT CORRECT, ON JUNE 13TH?
A SOMEWHERE LATER IN THE MORNING, 7:30, 8:00 O'CLOCK, SOMEWHERE AROUND THAT TIME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND SO WHEN THEY ARRIVED AT 7:30 OR 8:00 O'CLOCK, DID YOU SEE THEM WITH CAMERAS AS THE PRESS WILL OFTEN TIMES HAVE?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND DID YOU SEE THEM TAKING PICTURES?
A I WASN'T PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO THEM.
Q BUT DO YOU THINK THEY WERE TAKING PICTURES?
A I WOULD ASSUME THEY WOULD BE.
Q WITH POWERFUL LENSES?
A I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO THEIR LENSES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO FROM 7:30 ON THEREABOUTS WHEN THE PRESS ARRIVED, YOU WERE AWARE THEY WERE THERE AND THERE WAS SOME INTEREST IN WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THIS PARTICULAR CRIME SCENE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THE INTEREST RATE WAS ESCALATING RAPIDLY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND SO BETWEEN 7:30 A.M. AND THEN 10:00 O'CLOCK WHEN YOU FIRST TOOK YOUR LEAVE FROM -- WHEN YOU TOOK YOUR LEAVE FROM THE BUNDY LOCATION, THERE WAS INCREASING AND INCREASING PRESS PRESENCE. IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?
A THERE WAS A TREMENDOUS PRESS INTEREST.
Q AT SOME POINT, AFTER YOU AND FUHRMAN CAME BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION, DID YOU SEE VANNATTER AND LANGE BACK AT THAT LOCATION?
A TOM LANGE SHOWED BACK UP SHORTLY THEREAFTER.
Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS HE GOT BACK APPROXIMATELY?
A 6:40, 6:35, 6:40, 6:45, SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA.
Q A SHORT TIME AFTER YOU GOT THERE, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND THAT SHOULD BE INDICATED ON THIS LOG, SHOULD IT NOT; THAT HE HAD LEFT AND GONE TO ROCKINGHAM AND THEN CAME BACK?
A IF IT WAS DONE ABSOLUTELY PROPERLY AND HE CHECKED OUT AND CHECKED BACK IN, THEN IT SHOULD BE THERE.
Q AND IF HE DIDN'T DO THAT, IT WON'T BE ON THERE, RIGHT?
A THAT'S TRUE.
Q NOW, DID YOU DO -- WHAT IF ANYTHING DID YOU DO BETWEEN 7:00 O'CLOCK A.M. -- AFTER YOU MADE THIS FIRST CALL TO THE CORONER, YOU WERE ASSISTING TOM -- AND WE HEARD THAT YESTERDAY -- DID YOU DO ANYTHING AT THAT SCENE WITH REGARD TO ESTABLISHING THE TIME OF DEATH BETWEEN THE TIME THAT YOU CONCLUDED YOUR PHONE CALL WITH THE CORONER'S OFFICE SHORTLY AFTER 6:50 IN THE MORNING UNTIL THE TIME YOU MADE THE NEXT CALL AT 8:08 IN THE MORNING?
A I DID NOTHING IN THAT CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION WHATSOEVER, MR. COCHRAN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHEN YOU MADE THE SECOND CALL TO THE CORONER AT 8:08 AND PRIOR TO THE CORONER'S COMING AT 9:10, SAME ANSWER WOULD PERTAIN; YOU DID NOTHING?
A I DID NOTHING.
Q AT THIS POINT, YOU WERE ASSISTING, AS YOU'VE INDICATED TO US, TOM LANGE IN GETTING THE CORONER THERE, RIGHT?
A WHEN HE ASKED ME TO MAKE A PHONE CALL, I DID FOR HIM.
Q AND THEN AT SOME POINT, YOU SAW REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE CORONER'S OFFICE ARRIVE AT THE BUNDY LOCATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND WE ESTABLISHED THAT WAS ABOUT 9:10 IN THE MORNING.
AND DO YOU KNOW THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO CAME OUT?
A I KNOW THAT THE FEMALE INVESTIGATOR, I BELIEVE HER NAME WAS RATCLIFFE OR RATLIFFE -- RATCLIFFE I BELIEVE. I DO NOT KNOW WHO THE ASSISTANT WAS.
Q THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q A MALE AND A FEMALE?
A YES.
Q WERE THEY BOTH AFRICAN AMERICANS, DO YOU RECALL?
A I DON'T KNOW THAT.
Q BUT THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE THAT CAME OUT FROM THE CORONER'S OFFICE?
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECALL, WERE YOU STILL PRESENT WHEN THE BODIES WERE REMOVED FROM THAT LOCATION, SIR?
A I WAS STILL AT THE BUNDY LOCATION, YES.
Q WHEN THE BODIES WERE REMOVED?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHAT TIME THEY WERE REMOVED, SIR?
A NO.
Q WOULD A REVIEW OF THE LOG AT ALL REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IN THAT REGARD?
A I DON'T KNOW WHO PUT THE ENTRY INTO THE LOG. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TIME THE BODIES WERE REMOVED.
Q YOU LEFT AT 10:00 O'CLOCK?
A THE LOG SAYS I LEFT SOMETIME AT 10:00 O'CLOCK.
Q WELL, WHEN DID YOU LEAVE?
A I DON'T RECALL WHAT TIME I LEFT. I WASN'T LOOKING AT MY CLOCK EVERY TIME I LEFT AND WENT AND DID SOMETHING AND LOOKED AT IT WHEN I CAME BACK.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHAT WAS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE OF THE TIME YOU LEFT FOR ANY APPRECIABLE PERIOD OF TIME THAT MORNING, SIR?
A I WOULD HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING.
Q OKAY.
WHAT IS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE OF THE TIME THE BODIES WERE TAKEN OUT OF THERE BY THE CORONER'S OFFICE?
A I DON'T RECALL THAT EITHER.
Q DO YOU RECALL SEEING FUNG THERE AT A TIME WHEN THE BODIES WERE STILL THERE?
A AS I PREVIOUSLY STATED, I DON'T RECALL EVER SEEING FUNG AT THE BUNDY LOCATION.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST A SECOND, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YES.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? IN AN EFFORT TO AVOID A SIDEBAR, MAY I TALK TO COUNSEL?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THE NEXT PHOTOGRAPH AS DEFENDANT'S --
THE COURT: 1027.
MR. COCHRAN: 1027. I HAVE SHOWN IT TO COUNSEL.
(DEFT'S 1027 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, IF I MIGHT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, I HAVE IN MY HAND WHAT PURPORTS TO BE A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE BUNDY CRIME SCENE. AND I WILL PLACE BEFORE YOU THE PHOTOGRAPH. FIRST OF ALL, I WANT YOU TO LOOK AT IT, AND I'LL ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PHOTOGRAPH.
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECOGNIZE, SIR, FIRST OF ALL THE CRIME SCENE DEPICTED THERE?
A YES.
Q AND I WANT YOU TO LOOK AND I WANT YOU TO SEE IF YOU CAN TELL US WHETHER OR NOT YOU RECOGNIZE THE TWO CORONER'S REPRESENTATIVES THAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT.
A I ASSUME -- YES, I DO.
Q AND DO YOU SEE THEM? CAN YOU POINT THEM OUT FOR ME?
A I BELIEVE THIS IS ONE HERE AND I BELIEVE THIS IS THE OTHER ONE HERE (INDICATING).
Q ON THE PHOTOGRAPH, HE'S POINTED TO THE LADY, YOUR HONOR, AFRICAN AMERICAN LADY AND A GENTLEMAN BENDING OVER WITH SOME KIND OF A BLUE JUMPSUIT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH YOU RECOGNIZE?
A I BELIEVE I RECOGNIZE THESE TWO GENTLEMEN HERE (INDICATING).
Q OKAY.
HE'S POINTING TO TWO GENTLEMEN IN THE FOREGROUND OF THE PICTURE. AND LET'S TAKE THE PICTURE -- AND THE ONE ON THE RIGHT IS WHO?
A THIS GENTLEMAN HERE (INDICATING)?
Q YES, SIR.
A THIS IS AN OFFICER CARSON PIERCE.
Q OKAY.
AND THE ONE TO HIS LEFT, IS THAT AN OFFICER?
A I BELIEVE THAT'S SERGEANT ED PALMER.
Q ED PALMER?
A YES, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THERE'S SOMEBODY'S BACK HERE. CAN YOU RECOGNIZE THAT PERSON?
A NO, SIR.
Q THERE'S A PERSON HERE WITH GRAY HAIR AND SOME KIND OF A WHITE SHIRT.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT AS PHOTOGRAPHER ROKAHR?
A IT APPEARS TO BE HIM, YES.
Q THAT'S THE PHOTOGRAPHER, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND UP HERE, WHO IS THIS PERSON HERE WITH APPARENTLY SOMETHING IN HIS HANDS (INDICATING)?
A APPEARS TO LOOK LIKE DENNIS FUNG.
Q SO THIS IS THE CRIME SCENE FROM THAT MORNING OF JUNE 13TH, 1994; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND THE CORONERS ARE STILL THERE AT THAT POINT. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT THE BODIES ARE STILL THERE AT THAT POINT?
MS. CLARK: WELL, OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
MR. COCHRAN: LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ONE OF THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE CORONER IS TO REMOVE THE BODIES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND GENERALLY WHEN THE CORONER REMOVES THE BODIES, THEY THEN LEAVE, DON'T THEY?
A WELL, ONCE THE BODIES ARE REMOVED, THEY MAY STICK AROUND FOR A WHILE TO DO AN INVENTORY REPORT OR --
Q I UNDERSTAND THAT.
A -- TALK TO THE INVESTIGATOR FOR A SHORT TIME. BUT THEY LEAVE SHORTLY THEREAFTER.
Q THEY COME TO GET THE BODIES AND TAKE THE BODIES AWAY, DON'T THEY?
A YES, SIR.
Q IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, TWO CORONER REPRESENTATIVES ARE STILL AT THE SCENE, AT LEAST IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
MR. COCHRAN: THEN I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW THIS ON THE ELMO IF I MIGHT.
THIS IS 1027. 1027, MAKE IT AS CLEAR AS WE CAN.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
SO THAT -- THE JURY DIDN'T HAVE THE BENEFIT OF OUR CLOSE-UP DISCUSSION -- CAN YOU STEP OUT SO YOU CAN SEE THIS PHOTOGRAPH FROM OUT HERE? I'M SORRY TO INCONVENIENCE YOU. AND I'LL USE MY POINTER HERE.
WHO IS THIS PERSON HERE (INDICATING)?
A CARSON PIERCE.
Q THAT'S THE POLICE OFFICER?
A YES.
Q FROM WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION?
A YES.
Q THE OFFICER TO HIS IMMEDIATE LEFT, WHO IS THAT?
A SERGEANT ED PALMER.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHO THIS PERSON IS HERE (INDICATING)?
A NO, I DON'T.
Q THIS GENTLEMAN HERE BENDING OVER (INDICATING)?
A APPEARS TO BE ONE OF THE CORONER TECHNICIANS.
Q THERE'S SOME WRITING ON THE BACK OF HIS JUMPSUIT?
A YES.
Q YOU KNOW WHAT THAT WRITING SAYS?
A IT WOULD PROBABLY SAY CORONER.
Q THIS LADY HERE (INDICATING) -- THAT'S A LADY; IS IT NOT?
A I BELIEVE THAT'S MISS RATCLIFFE.
Q SHE'S ALSO FROM THE CORONER'S OFFICE?
A YES.
Q THIS MAN OVER HERE (INDICATING)?
A APPEARS TO BE --
Q WHITE HAIR?
A -- PHOTOGRAPHER NAMED ROKAHR.
Q THAT'S PHOTOGRAPHER ROKAHR?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW THIS PERSON BLOCKED BY THE TREE (INDICATING)?
A NO, SIR.
Q THIS MAN HERE (INDICATING), WHO IS THAT?
A DENNIS FUNG.
Q WHAT DOES FUNG APPARENTLY HAVE IN HIS HAND?
A I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE A BAG OF SOME KIND?
A I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE'S HOLDING, SIR.
Q DOES HE HAVE ANYTHING ON HIS HANDS, DO YOU KNOW?
A I CAN'T SEE THAT EITHER.
Q HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE IN THAT CRIME SCENE DEPICTED THERE ALTOGETHER?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT'S VAGUE. IN OR OUT --
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, I'M ASKING HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE DEPICTED IN THIS PICTURE, IN THIS SCENE.
MS. CLARK: WELL, THAT'S MISLEADING.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
LET'S COUNT THEM THEN. HOW MANY DO YOU SEE?
ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE, SIX, SEVEN, EIGHT.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. AT LEAST TWO OF THESE PEOPLE, IF NOT THREE ARE ON THE SIDEWALK.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I CAN'T TELL THAT FROM THE PICTURE. THE PICTURE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.
MS. CLARK: NO, IT DOESN'T.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, HOLD ON. MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
THE WITNESS: MAY I RESUME MY SEAT, YOUR HONOR?
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THERE ARE AT LEAST EIGHT INDIVIDUALS SOMEWHERE IN AND AROUND THE BUNDY CRIME SCENE BETWEEN THE SIDEWALK AND THE AREA WHERE THE BODIES WERE FOUND?
A WELL, IT'S HARD TO TELL WHETHER OR NOT CARSON PIERCE AND ED PALMER ARE STANDING ON THE GRASS AREA OR IN THE STREET, BUT THEY'RE IN FRONT OF THE CRIME SCENE, YES.
Q YES. AS I SAID, IN FRONT OF THE CRIME SCENE?
WOULD YOU AGREE THERE ARE EIGHT PEOPLE DEPICTED THERE?
A IN THAT TOTAL PICTURE, THERE'S EIGHT PEOPLE.
Q YES.
DID YOU SEE THIS SCENE WHILE YOU WERE STILL THERE?
A THIS PARTICULAR SCENE?
Q YES, THIS PARTICULAR SCENE. DID YOU SEE THIS -- DO YOU RECALL SEEING THAT SCENE?
A I DON'T RECALL SEEING THAT SCENE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WITH REGARD TO CRIME SCENE PRESERVATION AND AS AN EXPERIENCED HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, DO YOU TRY TO KEEP THE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE OUT OF THE SCENE OR KEEP THE NUMBERS AS SMALL AS POSSIBLE TO KEEP FROM TRACKING UP THE AREA?
A WELL, THAT'S THE ULTIMATE, YES.
Q DESIRED RESULT?
A YES.
Q ALL THE PEOPLE, THE INDIVIDUALS WHO CAME ON THAT PARTICULAR CRIME SCENE ON THAT MORNING, WERE THERE GLOVES AVAILABLE IF THEY WANTED TO PICK UP ANYTHING AT THE SCENE THAT MORNING, IF YOU KNOW?
A I HAVE NO IDEA. I WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE ACTUAL CRIME SCENE PREPARATION OF ANY KIND WITH TOM NOLAN OR TOM LANGE.
Q TOM LANGE?
NOW, AS AN EXPERIENCED HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR, I ASSUME YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF PROCEDURES THAT PERTAIN WHETHER YOU'RE FROM ROBBERY-HOMICIDE AND WEST LOS ANGELES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
Q YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF PROCEDURES THAT PERTAIN WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE FROM WEST LOS ANGELES OR ROBBERY-HOMICIDE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A WE HAVE THE SAME SYSTEM, YES.
Q YOU HAVE THE SAME AVAILABILITY OF RESOURCES GENERALLY, DON'T YOU?
A THEY CAN GET A LOT MORE RESOURCES THAN WE CAN, BUT WE HAVE THE SAME BASIC EQUIPMENT THEY HAVE.
Q FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU WANTED GLOVES TO SANITIZE THE COLLECTION OF EVIDENCE, WOULD YOU HAVE THAT IN WEST LOS ANGELES?
A WE HAVE GLOVES IN THE TRUNKS OF OUR HOMICIDE VEHICLES.
Q AND WOULD THEY HAVE THAT ALSO DOWNTOWN AT ROBBERY-HOMICIDE?
A I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA. I'VE NEVER WORKED THERE.
Q BUT YOU WOULD EXPECT THEY WOULD HAVE GLOVES, WOULD YOU NOT, IF YOU HAVE IT AND THEY HAVE MORE RESOURCES?
A I WOULD ASSUME THOSE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DETECTIVES HAVE GLOVES TOO.
Q WHAT ABOUT BOOTIES TO WEAR OVER ONE'S SHOES? DO YOU HAVE THOSE?
A NO, SIR.
Q YOU DON'T CARRY THOSE AT ALL?
A NO.
Q THAT MORNING, DID YOU EVER SEE ANYONE AT ALL VIDEOTAPING THAT PARTICULAR SCENE FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT, THE CRIME SCENE?
A NO.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, DO YOU HAVE MUCH MORE?
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A LITTLE MORE. THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD TIME. I'LL BE ABLE TO FINISH SHORTLY AFTER THAT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A 10-MINUTE COMFORT BREAK.
PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITION TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ON THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER IS SUBMITTED TO YOU, DO NOT ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU REGARDING THE CASE.
AND IF YOU'LL JUST STEP BACK INTO THE JURY ROOM, AND WE'LL CALL YOU BACK IN ABOUT 10 MINUTES.
ALL RIGHT.
WE'LL TAKE A 10-MINUTE RECESS.
(RECESS.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL THE PARTIES ARE PRESENT.
MR. HODGMAN, MR. SCHECK, IS THERE A MATTER THAT WE NEED TO RESOLVE?
MR. SCHECK: CAN WE APPROACH?
MR. DARDEN: THAT'S A SIDEBAR, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: THEY DON'T COUNT.
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED, WITH
MR. HODGMAN, MR. YOCHELSON AND
MR. SCHECK PRESENT.)
THE COURT: DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED.
THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT WE'VE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. DETECTIVE RONALD PHILLIPS IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND ON CROSS-EXAMINATION.
DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.
AND, MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CONCLUDE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. I WILL BE DOING THAT, YOUR HONOR, THIS VERY MORNING.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DEPUTY PHILLIPS, A FEW MORE QUESTIONS IF I MIGHT.
YOU HAD MENTIONED IN RESPONSE TO ONE OF MISS CLARK'S QUESTIONS THAT THERE WAS SOME MEASURE OF DISAPPOINTMENT WHEN YOU WERE TAKEN OFF THIS CASE BECAUSE YOU HAD GOTTEN UP AMONG OTHER THINGS.
WOULD THAT DISAPPOINTMENT HAVE BEEN MAGNIFIED IN ANY WAY BECAUSE THE MAN WHO WORKED FOR YOU, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, HAD KNOWN AT LEAST ONE OF THE VICTIMS IN THIS CASE AT SOME POINT PRIOR TO THAT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. OBJECTION. THAT'S VAGUE.
THE COURT: WELL, IT ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
MR. COCHRAN: HAD INVESTIGATED -- THERE'S BEEN TESTIMONY -- WELL, LET ME RESTATE IT, YOUR HONOR --
THE COURT: ASK HIM IF HE IS AWARE OF THAT FIRST.
MR. COCHRAN: I'LL TAKE CARE OF IT, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WITH REGARD TO THE LEVEL OF DISAPPOINTMENT, I'M ASKING WHETHER OR NOT IT WILL BE MAGNIFIED BY THE FACT THAT AT SOME POINT YOU LEARNED THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN HAD INVESTIGATED A CALL AT LEAST IN 1985 INVOLVING NICOLE.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THIS IS GOING TO BE A HEARSAY OBJECTION, ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
WHAT'S THE RELEVANCE OF WHAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN DID TO THIS WITNESS' SENSE OF DISAPPOINTMENT OR NOT?
THE COURT: IT'S SUSTAINED AT THIS POINT ON FOUNDATIONAL GROUNDS.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: YOU NEED TO ESTABLISH IF THAT WAS IN HIS MIND AT THE TIME THAT HE WAS TOLD.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AT SOME POINT, YOU BECAME AWARE THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN HAD RESPONDED TO A CALL BACK IN 1985 AT THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A AFTER THIS CASE, YES, I WAS AWARE OF THAT.
Q AND AT ANY TIME, WAS YOUR LEVEL OF DISAPPOINTMENT IN HAVING TO TURN THE CASE OVER TO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE AT ALL MAGNIFIED BY ANY CONTACT THAT ANY OF THE OFFICERS HAD HAD WITH THE PARTIES IN THIS CASE BEFORE THAT? THAT'S THE QUESTION.
A THE DISAPPOINTMENT IN NOT HANDLING THIS CASE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME DISAPPOINTMENT NO MATTER WHAT THE CASE WAS. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CASE AT ALL.
WE HAD JUST GOTTEN UP, WE HAD GONE OUT TO A CRIME SCENE. IT WAS OUR CASE TO INVESTIGATE. IT WAS TAKEN AWAY FROM US.
THERE WAS DISAPPOINTMENT THAT WE WEREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO INVESTIGATE THE CASE. IT WOULD HAVE MADE NO DIFFERENCE WHOSE CASE OR WHAT CASE THAT WAS TAKEN AWAY FROM US.
Q ALL RIGHT.
OKAY.
NOW, I MAY HAVE ASKED YOU THIS QUESTION. I APOLOGIZE IF I DID.
WITH REGARD TO THE CRIME SCENE BEING -- WAS IT -- WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN IT WAS WASHED DOWN OR CAN YOU TELL US WHEN THIS SCENE WAS WASHED DOWN?
A I WAS NOT PRESENT, SIR.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHEN IT WAS WASHED DOWN?
A NO, I DON'T.
Q WHEN YOU CAME BACK LATER THAT DAY ON JUNE 13TH, HAD THE BLOOD BEEN WASHED DOWN AT THAT POINT?
A I NEVER WENT BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION. I WAS NOT AT THE BUNDY LOCATION WHEN THE SCENE WAS BROKEN DOWN. I WAS AT MY OFFICE AND I NEVER WENT BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION THAT DAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU KNOW OR HAVE YOU SEEN ANY RECORDS OF THE SHOE SIZES OF THE OFFICERS WHO HAD BEEN AT THE BUNDY SCENE? WAS THERE A RECORD KEPT OF THE OFFICERS' SHOE SIZES?
A NO, SIR.
Q OF COURSE, PRIOR TO YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU HAVE NOT WATCHED THESE PROCEEDINGS ON TELEVISION, HAVE YOU?
A NO, SIR.
Q DID YOU EVER PARTICIPATE IN GOING BACK OVER TO ROCKINGHAM WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHER ROKAHR AT ALL THAT MORNING?
A NO, SIR.
Q WOULD IT BE FAIR THAT THE LAST TIME YOU SAW HIM THAT DAY ON JUNE 13TH WAS WHEN HE WAS AT THE BUNDY LOCATION?
A I DON'T RECALL SEEING HIM ANYMORE AFTER THAT.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE MOVEMENT OF EVIDENCE, WHETHER INTENTIONALLY OR ACCIDENTAL, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU TRY NOT TO HAVE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND IF EVIDENCE IS EITHER MOVED ACCIDENTALLY OR ANY OTHER WAYS, YOU WOULD TEND TO WRITE A REPORT AND EXPLAIN THAT, IS THAT CORRECT, IN A CASE YOU WERE HANDLING?
A IT WOULD DEPEND.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.
MR. COCHRAN: IT'S IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU MAY ANSWER THAT.
A IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE CIRCUMSTANCE, IT WOULD DEPEND ON WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE TIME. IT DEPENDS ON WHAT EVIDENCE WAS MOVED OR WHY IT WAS MOVED OR WHO WAS MOVED. THERE COULD BE A WHOLE LITANY OF THINGS THAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED OR MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED THAT MIGHT HAVE WANTED YOU TO MAKE A REPORT.
Q BUT IF YOU WANTED TO EXPLAIN WHY EVIDENCE WAS MOVED, THE BEST RECORD WOULD BE TO WRITE A REPORT AS TO WHAT HAD ACTUALLY HAPPENED; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A IF YOU THOUGHT THE REPORT WAS NECESSARY TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU HAD DONE, YES.
Q THE PERFECT SCENE, THE PERFECT CRIME SCENE, YOU WANT EVIDENCE TO REMAIN JUST AS IT WAS WHEN YOU FOUND IT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S THE IDEAL WAY, YES.
Q THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT PHOTOGRAPHS ARE TAKEN, PICTURES ARE TAKEN ALMOST IMMEDIATELY OR SOON THEREAFTER, BECAUSE EVIDENCE WILL TEND TO DISSIPATE OVER TIME; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YOU ALWAYS TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS BEFORE AND AFTER.
Q AND ONE OF THE REASONS, IS IT NOT, THAT YOU WANT TO GET THE CORONER OUT THERE IS THAT THERE ARE CHANGES THAT TAKE PLACE IN BODIES OVER TIME; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A WELL, A BODY WILL BEGIN TO CHANGE, YES.
Q YES. IN OTHER WORDS, RIGOR MORTIS MAY SET IN; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S TRUE.
Q AND YOU HAVE BEEN AT CRIME SCENES, HAVE YOU NOT, WHEN THE CORONER HAS ARRIVED AND TAKEN A LIVER TEMPERATURE OF A PARTICULAR BODY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I'VE BEEN THERE WHEN THE CORONER HAS TAKEN LIVER TEMPERATURES, YES.
Q AND THE LIVER TEMPERATURE IS ONE OF THE WAYS THAT THE CORONER CAN EXTRAPOLATE OR TRY AND ASCERTAIN THE TIME OF DEATH; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A ONE OF SEVERAL WAYS, YES.
Q YOU'RE AWARE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THAT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A IT'S A FACTOR THAT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED, YES.
Q WERE YOU AT THAT SCENE WHEN HE -- WHEN THE CORONER FINALLY ARRIVED AND WHEN LIVER TEMPERATURES WERE TAKEN IN THIS CASE?
A NO, I WAS NOT.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK, REDIRECT.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
Q DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, YESTERDAY, MR. COCHRAN WAS ASKING YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT THE SPECIAL ORDER 21. DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF IT, SIR?
A YES.
Q I'M GOING TO PUT IT ON THE ELMO SO THE JURY CAN SEE IT TOO.
MS. CLARK: FIRST, COULD YOU -- JONATHAN, CAN YOU SHOW THE TOP?
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
THAT'S THE ORDER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND THE SUBJECT MATTER IS NOTIFICATIONS TO THE CORONER.
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DROPPING DOWN TO THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH -- HOLD STILL. OKAY -- WHERE IT SAYS:
"THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER AT THE SCENE OF A DEATH WHICH REQUIRES NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER SHALL MAKE NOTIFICATION IMMEDIATELY UPON DETERMINING THAT THE DEATH FALLS WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE CORONER'S OFFICE."
FIRST OF ALL, SIR, TELL US, DOES THIS MEAN ONLY HOMICIDES?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. HE CAN TELL US WHAT IT MEANS. IT WAS LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE THE WAY IT WAS PHRASED.
MS. CLARK: WITHDRAWN. COUNSEL IS RIGHT.
THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT MEANS, WHAT IT REFERS TO?
A THIS REFERS TO ANY SCENE OF ANY DEATH THAT COMES WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE CORONER'S OFFICE.
Q OKAY.
DOES -- AND WHAT DOES THAT INCLUDE, SIR?
A INCLUDES DEATHS WHERE DOCTORS DO NOT SIGN CERTIFICATES WITHIN 20 DAYS AND INCLUDES SUICIDES, INCLUDES HOMICIDES, INCLUDES ACCIDENTALS. WHENEVER AN OFFICER GOES OUT AND COMES ACROSS A DEATH.
Q WHETHER IT'S BY CRIMINAL AGENCY OR NOT?
A UNTIL WE DETERMINE WHETHER IT IS OR NOT, YES.
Q OKAY.
SO IN ALL THOSE CASES, THERE'S A REQUIREMENT TO NOTIFY THE CORONER?
A YES.
Q NOW, DROPPING DOWN TO THE SECOND PART OF THAT PARAGRAPH -- ACTUALLY, LET ME BACK UP.
IT SAYS:
"SHALL MAKE THE NOTIFICATION IMMEDIATELY UPON DETERMINING THAT THE DEATH FALLS WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE CORONER'S OFFICE," BUT THEN IT GOES ON TO SAY:
"IF THE CORONER IS NOT IMMEDIATELY NEEDED AT THE SCENE"?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?
A WELL, WHAT THIS PARAGRAPH IS TELLING YOU IS THAT THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER, WHO MAY NOT ALWAYS BE A DETECTIVE -- THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER AT A SUICIDE MAY NOT BE A DETECTIVE.
IT MAY BE A PATROL OFFICER WHO CAME ACROSS AN OBVIOUS SUICIDE. IT MAY BE A NATURAL DEATH THAT THE DOCTOR DOESN'T WANT TO SIGN A DEATH CERTIFICATE.
AND WE DON'T ALWAYS HAVE DETECTIVES ROLL ON THOSE CALLS. SO THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER AT ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS WOULD BE THE PATROL OFFICER WHO IS INVESTIGATING THAT CALL OR INVESTIGATING THAT DEATH SCENE.
AND WHAT THEY'RE TELLING YOU IS THAT UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, TO NOTIFY THE CORONER'S OFFICE TO HAVE THE CORONER'S OFFICE COME OUT AND REMOVE THE BODY. AND IF THE CORONER IS NOT IMMEDIATELY NEEDED, THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER SHALL ADVISE THE CORONER OF AN APPROXIMATE TIME WHEN THE CORONER MAY BE NEEDED.
Q OKAY.
AND WHEN WOULD IT BE A SITUATION WHERE THE CORONER WOULD NOT IMMEDIATELY BE NEEDED?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. IT'S IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL. THIS IS NOT A SUICIDE. THESE OTHER THINGS ARE IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: WHAT WAS THE QUESTION AGAIN?
Q BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF A SITUATION WHERE THE CORONER WOULD NOT IMMEDIATELY BE NEEDED?
A WELL, IT MAY BE A SUICIDE THAT THE OFFICERS MAY HAVE TO DO A SMALL AMOUNT OF INVESTIGATION TO SEE THAT IT WASN'T -- WAS A SUICIDE OR WASN'T A SUICIDE. THERE MAY BE SOME INVESTIGATING, TALKING TO FAMILY MEMBERS OR TRYING TO GET AHOLD OF A DOCTOR TO SEE IF A DOCTOR WANTED TO SIGN THE CERTIFICATE IF WE CAN FIND THAT CORRECT DOCTOR.
SO NOT IMMEDIATELY MEANS IT MAY TAKE THOSE PATROL OFFICERS WHO ARE THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS AN HOUR TO GET THAT INFORMATION ALL PUT TOGETHER.
Q WHAT ABOUT THE SITUATION WHERE IT'S A HOMICIDE?
A HOMICIDE IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION ALTOGETHER.
Q AND WHY IS THAT?
A BECAUSE A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION REQUIRES THE SERVICES OF A SPECIALIZED DETECTIVE, THE HOMICIDE DETECTIVE TO COME OUT TO THAT CRIME SCENE.
Q OKAY.
AND IN THAT SITUATION, IF IT IS A HOMICIDE, IS THAT AN EXAMPLE ALSO WHERE A CORONER IS NOT IMMEDIATELY NEEDED?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION AS LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: IS THE -- IS A HOM -- IN THE CASE OF A HOMICIDE, IS THAT A CASE WHERE THE CORONER WOULD BE IMMEDIATELY NEEDED?
A NO.
Q AND WHY IS THAT?
A YOU HAVE SEVERAL THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO AT A CRIME SCENE FIRST. YOU HAVE TO, NUMBER ONE, TALK TO ALL THE OFFICERS, FIND OUT WHAT YOU HAVE. YOU HAVE TO EXAMINE THE CRIME SCENE. YOU HAVE TO MEASURE YOUR CRIME SCENE OFF. YOU HAVE TO MAKE A CRIME SCENE SKETCH. YOU HAVE TO HAVE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN OF THAT CRIME SCENE. YOU MAY HAD FINGERPRINTS NEEDED TO BE TAKEN OF THAT CRIME SCENE.
SEVERAL THINGS NEED TO BE DONE BEFORE YOU BRING THE CORONER'S OFFICE IN AND ATTEMPT TO MOVE THE BODIES.
Q SO IT SAYS IN THAT EVENT:
"WHEN THE CORONER IS NOT IMMEDIATELY NEEDED, THAT THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER SHALL ADVISE THE CORONER OF AN APPROXIMATE TIME WHEN THE CORONER'S DEPUTY CAN RESPOND; AND IF NO TIME CAN BE ESTIMATED, THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER SHALL ARRANGE TO MAKE SECOND NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER WHEN THE RESPONSE IS APPROPRIATE."
A THAT'S WHERE WE GET OUR FIRST CALL AND SECOND CALL.
Q AND IS THAT WHAT YOU DID IN THIS CASE?
A YES.
Q YOU MADE FIRST NOTIFICATION AT WHAT TIME?
A 6:50.
Q AND THEN YOU MADE THE SECOND NOTIFICATION TO TELL THEM TO COME STRAIGHT OUT AT WHAT TIME?
A 8:08.
Q AND IN THE SECOND PARAGRAPH, SIR:
"WHEN CIRCUMSTANCES INDICATE THAT THE INVESTIGATION OF THE DEATH REQUIRES THE EXPERTISE OF A SPECIALIZED INVESTIGATOR, FOR EXAMPLE, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER SHALL BE MADE BY THE CONCERNED --"
MR. COCHRAN: I'M SORRY. I RELUCTANTLY OBJECT. IS THIS A QUESTION? WE CAN READ THE DOCUMENT ITSELF.
MS. CLARK: IT IS FOUNDATIONAL.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
Q BY MS. CLARK: "-- BY THE CONCERNED SPECIALIZED INVESTIGATOR WHO RESPONDS TO THE SCENE OF THE INCIDENT."
CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT PASSAGE?
A WELL, THE FIRST PARAGRAPH THERE EXPLAINS THAT THIS COULD BE ANY TYPE OF DEATH THAT EVEN A PATROL OFFICER MAY BE INVESTIGATING. IT'S NATURAL OR WHATEVER.
THEN THEY'RE TELLING YOU WHEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES INDICATE THAT IT IS A HOMICIDE AND YOU NEED THE EXPERTISE OF A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE. THEY'RE TELLING THAT PATROL OFFICER OR THAT OFFICER THAT'S INVESTIGATING THAT HOMICIDE OR TRAFFIC COLLISION, WHATEVER IT IS, DO NOT NOTIFY THE CORONER'S OFFICE, LET THE ASSIGNED HOMICIDE DETECTIVE WHO'S IN CHARGE OF THE CASE MAKE THE NOTIFICATION BECAUSE HE HAS ALL THIS WORK TO DO WHEN HE GETS THERE.
Q SO WHY IS IT IMPORTANT WHO MAKES NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER; FIRST OFFICER OR THE HOMICIDE DETECTIVE WHO EVENTUALLY IS ASSIGNED TO THE CASE?
A IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE CORONER'S OFFICE IS THEN NOT LEFT STANDING AROUND DOING NOTHING WHEN THEY COULD BE GOING TO OTHER CALLS TO PICK UP OTHER DECEASED. IT KIND OF LETS THEM MAKE THEIR ARRANGEMENTS.
AS AN EXAMPLE, IF --
Q NO, SIR. THE QUESTION I'M ASKING IS, WHY IS IT IMPORTANT WHO MAKES NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER, THE DETECTIVE VERSUS THE PATROL OFFICER WHO FIRST SHOWS UP?
A BECAUSE THE DETECTIVE, WHEN HE SHOWS UP, HE CAN EVALUATE THE CRIME SCENE. HE CAN TELL HOW LONG IT'S GOING TO TAKE HIM -- WITH HIS EXPERIENCE AND HIS KNOWLEDGE, HOW LONG IT'S GOING TO TAKE HIM TO DO THIS CRIME SCENE TO GET IT READY FOR THE CORONER'S OFFICE TO COME.
A PATROL OFFICER WOULD HAVE NO IDEA HOW LONG IT'S GOING TO TAKE THAT DETECTIVE TO FINISH HIS CRIME INVESTIGATION. SO FOR HIM TO MAKE A ESTIMATE OF TIME WOULD BENEFIT NOBODY.
Q UH-HUH.
SO CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHAT IS THE OVERALL PURPOSE OF THIS SPECIAL ORDER NUMBER 21?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS THE CHIEF'S ORDER. I'M NOT SURE THAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WITH HIS RELATIVE EXPERIENCE IS THE BEST ONE TO GIVE US THIS. THIS IS NOT THE WITNESS I DON'T THINK --
THE COURT: WELL, DOESN'T IT PRETTY MUCH SPEAK FOR ITSELF?
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, NO.
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW FROM THIS WITNESS IS WHAT HE UNDERSTANDS -- HE UNDERSTANDS WHAT THE PROBLEM IS THAT'S BEING ADDRESSED IN THIS SPECIAL ORDER AND IT DOESN'T SPEAK FOR ITSELF IN THAT REGARD BECAUSE IT WAS ADDRESSING A SPECIFIC PROBLEM, AND THAT IS THE ISSUE.
THE COURT: IT CROSS-REFERENCES THE MANUAL WHICH IS MODIFIED, WHICH IT SAYS MODIFIED, WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN TOLD TO THE JURY.
MS. CLARK: AND THAT DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ITSELF. IF I CAN BE PERMITTED TO ELICIT THIS ANSWER, THE COURT WILL SEE.
THE COURT: BRIEFLY.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WHAT IS THE OVERALL PURPOSE FOR THE ISSUANCE OF THIS ORDER? WHAT PROBLEM WAS IT SEEKING TO ADDRESS?
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT PARTICULAR QUESTION. THAT'S NOT WHAT SHE SAID SHE WAS GOING TO DO. WHAT WAS IN THE CHIEF'S MIND WHEN HE ISSUED THIS ORDER IS NOT RELEVANT IN THIS CASE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR --
THE WITNESS: WELL, WHAT IT ATTEMPTS TO DO IS TO ELIMINATE THE DOWNTIME OF THE CORONER'S OFFICE STANDING AROUND AT ONE CRIME SCENE FOR FOUR OR FIVE HOURS WHEN THEY COULD BE DOING SOMETHING ELSE AT ANOTHER AREA THAT IS READY FOR THEM SO WE DON'T HAVE BODIES AND CRIME SCENES BEING BACKED UP ALL OVER THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES.
WHY HAVE THE CORONER'S OFFICE SITTING AROUND FOR FOUR OR FIVE HOURS AT ONE CRIME SCENE WHERE HE COULD BE PICKING UP -- I DON'T MEAN TO BE GROSS -- BUT PICKING UP TWO OR THREE NATURAL DECEASED AND WHILE HE'S STANDING AROUND WAITING FOR ONE CRIME SCENE TO BE DONE.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND IF THE CORONER IS STANDING AROUND AT ONE CRIME SCENE WAITING, JUST WAITING TO BE ALLOWED INTO IT TO REMOVE THE BODIES, WHAT HAPPENS TO OTHER OFFICERS ON OTHER HOMICIDE SCENES WHO ARE WAITING FOR THE CORONER?
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR. SHE SAID BRIEFLY.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WELL, THEN THOSE CRIME SCENES WOULD BEGIN TO BACK UP. WE WOULD HAVE OFFICERS STANDING AROUND WAITING FOR CORONERS TO SHOW UP AND IT WOULD JUST BECOME A DOMINO EFFECT.
THIS WHOLE IDEA IS SO THAT WE HAVE RAPID RESPONSE FROM THE CORONER'S OFFICE; THEY CAN DO THEIR JOB, GET OUT AND GET TO ANOTHER AREA WHERE THEY'RE NEEDED, WHERE OTHER DETECTIVES OR OTHER OFFICERS ARE WAITING FOR A CORONER TO SHOW UP AT THAT LOCATION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, SIR, ON THE CORONER'S TAPE, WHEN YOU WERE SPEAKING TO MR. WILLIS, YOU TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS MR. SIMPSON IN THAT CONVERSATION. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A YES.
Q WHY? WHY DID YOU TELL HIM?
A WELL, BECAUSE I DID, NUMBER ONE. BUT NUMBER TWO IS, IF I WERE TO TELL THEM THAT WE HAD A DOUBLE HOMICIDE IN THE BRENTWOOD AREA, IT'S GOING TO CAUSE A NEWS MEDIA EVENT REGARDLESS OF WHO IS INVOLVED. IT'S JUST WE DON'T HAVE DOUBLE HOMICIDES IN THE BRENTWOOD AREA VERY OFTEN.
AND SO BY TELLING HIM WHAT WE HAD AND ASKING HIM FOR HIS COOPERATION IN KEEPING IT QUIET, WE WOULD ELIMINATE THE PRESS FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. TRYING TO MAKE A POINT TO HIM.
Q UH-HUH.
TO LET HIM KNOW HOW IMPORTANT IT WAS?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR, THE LAST STATEMENT.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
MS. CLARK: WITHDRAWN.
Q BY MS. CLARK: SIR, YOU INDICATED I THINK ON CROSS-EXAMINATION THAT THERE'S A MOONLIGHTING JOB THAT YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN BOTH DID?
A USED TO DO, YES.
Q USED TO DO AT ONE TIME.
WERE YOU WORKING TOGETHER WHEN YOU DID THAT?
A NO.
Q YOU AND HE WOULD GO TO THE JOB TOGETHER, COME HOME TOGETHER?
A NO, SIR. NO, MA'AM.
THAT'S TWO.
Q IT IS TWO. THAT'S OKAY.
BUT YOU WOULD -- YOU DIDN'T SEE EACH OTHER THEN ON THE JOB THERE?
A NO.
MR. COCHRAN: LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
I THINK YOU COVERED THAT AS WELL ON THE DIRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: I THOUGHT SO.
MS. CLARK: ON DIRECT?
THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. ON CROSS. IT WAS COVERED ON CROSS, THAT THEY WORK THE SAME JOB, THEY DID NOT WORK AT THE SAME TIME.
WHAT'S THE JOB?
MS. CLARK: I WANT TO DO IT TOO. I AM SORRY. I'M GETTING VERY PUNCHY.
THE COURT: IT'S BEEN A LONG WEEK.
MS. CLARK: IT HAS.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ARE THERE OTHER OFFICERS OR DO OTHER OFFICERS ALSO WORK THAT SAME JOB, SIR?
A YES. I BELIEVE THERE WAS PROBABLY 15 OF US THAT WORKED THAT LOCATION, DIFFERENT SHIFTS. IT WAS 24 HOURS AROUND THE CLOCK.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: 71? PEOPLE'S 71.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. IF WE COULD MARK THIS AS PEOPLE'S 71, YOUR HONOR.
(PEO'S 71 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)
Q BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU -- CAN YOU SEE THAT ON THE MONITOR, SIR?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S BEING SHOWN THERE?
A IT LOOKS LIKE THE REAR OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY AND THE JEEP THAT WAS PARKED IN THE DRIVEWAY.
Q OKAY.
NOW, WAS THERE ROOM TO WALK BETWEEN THE JEEP AND THE FENCE?
A YES.
Q WAS THERE ROOM TO PARK IN THE ALLEY BEHIND THE JEEP?
A YES.
Q AND WAS THERE ROOM TO PARK BEHIND THE FERRARI IN THE DRIVEWAY?
A YES.
Q NOW --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: CAN YOU CUT THE FEED FOR THIS ONE, PLEASE?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: I HAVE NOT SEEN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS, YOUR HONOR.
MS. CLARK: COUNSEL HAS SEEN THEM.
MR. COCHRAN: BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN THEM TODAY.
THE COURT: I BELIEVE THIS IS --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: THIS WILL BE MARKED NEXT IN ORDER, YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S 72.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
PEOPLE'S 72.
(PEO'S 72 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)
Q BY MS. CLARK: SIR, YOU INDICATED DURING CROSS-EXAMINATION THAT YOU SAW A MENU. DO YOU RECALL TESTIFYING TO THAT?
A YES. MR. COCHRAN SHOWED ME SOMETHING ABOUT A PIZZA MAN MENU ON A STATEMENT WRITTEN BY DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
Q OKAY.
NOW, IN THAT STATEMENT THAT HE SHOWED YOU --
MS. CLARK: HAS THAT BEEN MARKED, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: THE STATEMENT? I DON'T BELIEVE SO.
MS. CLARK: THE REPORT?
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK IT'S FOUR PAGES.
MS. CLARK: D-1023.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS D-123, SIR, THE SECOND PAGE AFTER ITEM NO. 5, IT SAYS --
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THIS.
THE COURT: ARE YOU USING THIS TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION ON JUST TO POINT OUT SOMETHING?
MS. CLARK: I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT SOMETHING.
MR. COCHRAN: IT'S HEARSAY OTHERWISE. HAVE HIM READ IT TO HIMSELF.
THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU HAVE HIM READ IT TO HIMSELF AT THIS POINT.
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
THE WITNESS: YES.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
NOW, BASED ON YOUR READING OF THIS, DOES THIS REFER TO ONE OR TWO ITEMS?
A TWO ITEMS.
Q OKAY.
AND ONE IS FOUND WHERE ACCORDING TO THIS NOTE?
A ON AN UPSTAIRS COFFEE --
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I'M RELUCTANT TO OBJECT. THIS IS BEING USED FOR MEMORY REFRESHING. SHE'S NOT JUST REFERRING TO HIS NOTE. THAT'S HEARSAY.
MS. CLARK: NO, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: CORRECT.
MS. CLARK: I'M CLEARING UP WHAT WAS DEALT WITH ON CROSS-EXAMINATION.
THE COURT: YOU NEED TO --
MR. COCHRAN: NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. LET'S WORK IT OUT.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
THERE'S A REFERENCE TO A NOTE ON AN UPSTAIRS COFFEE TABLE. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT?
A NO.
Q DID YOU EVER SEE SUCH A NOTE ON A COFFEE TABLE?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
THEN DOWN HERE, THERE'S REFERENCE TO A MENU. IT SAYS, "PIZZA MENU BY FEMALE VICTIM'S LEFT LEG."
DO YOU SEE THAT?
A WELL, I SAW A MENU BY HER LEFT LEG. AND AFTER LOOKING AT THIS, I THOUGHT IT WAS A PIZZA MENU. BUT I REMEMBER NOW THAT IT WAS AN ORIENTAL MENU FROM SOME ORIENTAL TYPE RESTAURANT. IT WASN'T A PIZZA MENU.
Q AND LOOKING AT THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT'S NOW BEEN MARKED PEOPLE'S 72 --
A YES.
Q -- DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT, SIR?
A YES. THAT WAS THE ORIENTAL MENU THAT I WAS REFERRING TO THAT I INADVERTENTLY THOUGHT THAT WAS REFERRING TO.
Q WHEN YOU SAY "THAT", YOU'RE REFERRING TO D-1023, THE PASSAGE WE WERE JUST LOOKING AT, PARAGRAPH 5?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU SAW THE DOG KATO AT THE -- AT THE BUNDY SCENE I THINK YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW OF ANY WAY TO CHECK A DOG'S TEETH TO SEE IF IT HAD BITTEN SOMEONE FOUR HOURS EARLIER?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. IT CALLS FOR SCIENCE THAT'S OUTSIDE WITHOUT FURTHER FOUNDATION. IT'S OUTSIDE THE EXPERTISE OF THE OFFICER.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I AM SORRY?
THE COURT: ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY WAY TO TEST A DOG'S TEETH FOR HAVING BITTEN SOMEBODY RECENTLY?
MS. CLARK: NO, THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: I LIKE THAT QUESTION BETTER.
MS. CLARK: OF COURSE. CAN I TRY AGAIN, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: I LIKE MY QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: SHOULD I ANSWER YOURS?
THE COURT: WELL, I'M NOT THE LAWYER. WE'LL TRY -- I TRY TO LET THE LAWYERS TRY THEIR OWN CASES.
I AM SORRY. MISS CLARK, ASK YOUR QUESTION.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. APPRECIATE IT.
THE COURT: MUCH AS I'D LIKE TO.
MS. CLARK: GO AHEAD.
THE COURT: NO. YOU DO YOUR JOB.
MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU KNOW OF ANY WAY TO CHECK A DOG'S TEETH TO SEE IF IT HAD BITTEN SOMEONE FOUR HOURS EARLIER?
A NO.
Q DID IT OCCUR TO YOU TO GO AND CHECK EMERGENCY ROOM MEDICAL RECORDS TO SEE IF A PERSON WHO HAD JUST KILLED TWO PEOPLE WENT AND CHECKED HIMSELF INTO AN EMERGENCY ROOM FOR A DOG BITE HE HAD GOTTEN DURING A KILLING?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q NOW, DID YOU TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE SOLES OF THE SHOES OF THE FIRST OFFICERS THAT WERE ON THE SCENE?
A YES, I DID.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS I HAVE SHOWN TO COUNSEL. IT WOULD BE EIGHT, 12 -- 30, 30 PHOTOGRAPHS, YOUR HONOR, OF SOLES OF SHOES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I AM GOING TO HAVE MISS ROBERTSON GET A BLACK BINDER SO WE CAN PUT THOSE IN.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
I TAKE IT YOU WANT THESE COLLECTIVELY AS PEOPLE'S 73?
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR, THANK YOU.
(PEO'S 73 FOR ID = 30 PHOTOS, SHOE SOLES)
MS. CLARK: MAY I APPROACH?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
Q BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU THE ITEMS THAT HAVE NOW BEEN COLLECTIVELY MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 73 --
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MS. CLARK: -- DO YOU RECOGNIZE --
THE COURT: THAT WAY, WE CAN PUT THEM IN A SINGLE ORDER AND THEN FLIP THROUGH THEM.
THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND HOW DO YOU RECOGNIZE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS?
A I TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHS AT WEST LOS ANGELES DETECTIVES.
Q AT THE WEST LOS -- AT THE DETECTIVES AREA?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHEN THESE POLAROIDS WERE TAKEN?
A THEY WERE TAKEN OVER A PERIOD OF SEVERAL DAYS. ALL THE OFFICERS OBVIOUSLY DON'T WORK THE SAME SHIFT, THE SAME DAY ALL AT THE SAME TIME. SO I LEFT WORD IN THE WATCH COMMANDER'S OFFICE THAT THESE PARTICULAR OFFICERS THE NEXT TIME THEY REPORTED TO WORK, TO COME UP AND SEE ME, AND THEN I CAME IN EARLY TO MEET THEM. I THEN TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THEIR SHOES.
SO IT WAS OVER A PERIOD OF DAYS.
Q BUT WAS IT WITHIN A WEEK OF THE HOMICIDES?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: IS THERE SOME WAY WE CAN SHOW THESE TO THE JURY?
THE COURT: CAN YOU ELMO THEM ONE PAGE AT A TIME?
THE ONLY PROBLEM IS, THE PROTECTIVE COVERS ON THOSE THINGS HAVE A BAD REFLECTIVE --
MS. CLARK: HAS A GLARE.
THE COURT: LET'S TRY IT.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: WE NEED TO WORK HALF PAGES AT A TIME.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
IS IT POSSIBLE YOU CAN JUST MOVE THE REFLECTIVE COVER JUST FOR THE PURPOSE OF ELMOING, I MEAN JUST OPEN UP THE FLAP?
YEAH. BETTER.
ALL RIGHT.
MISS CLARK, HOW ABOUT IF WE HAVE MR. FAIRTLOUGH JUST RUN THROUGH THEM, SHOW THEM A BRIEF SHOT OF EACH ONE OF THESE.
MS. CLARK: THAT'S GREAT. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LET'S SEE THE NEXT SET.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: THIS IS PAGE 543.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PAGE 544, FIRST HALF.
PAGE 547.
PAGE 545, FIRST HALF.
PAGE 545, SECOND HALF.
PAGE 546, FIRST HALF.
PAGE 546, SECOND HALF.
PAGE 640, FIRST HALF.
PAGE 640, SECOND HALF.
PAGE 861, TWO PRINTS.
PAGE 862, TWO PRINTS ONLY.
PAGE 1010, TWO PRINTS ONLY.
PAGE 1011, TWO PRINTS ONLY.
PAGE 1174, TWO PRINTS ONLY.
Q BY MS. CLARK: THOSE ARE THE ONES?
A YES.
Q SIR, HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A FLAVOR OF ICE CREAM CALLED CHOCOLATE CHIP COOKIE DOUGH?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU CHECK THE ICE CREAM THAT YOU FOUND IN THE BEN AND JERRY'S CUP INSIDE OF 875 BUNDY TO SEE IF THERE WERE CLUMPS OF CHOCOLATE COOKIE DOUGH IN IT?
A NO.
Q WHEN YOU WENT INTO THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION, SIR, YOU SAID YOU WENT IN THROUGH THE REAR DOOR --
A YES.
Q -- WITH ARNELLE?
DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE WHETHER SHE WENT TO PUNCH IN AN ALARM KEYPAD WHEN YOU FIRST ENTERED?
A NO, I DIDN'T.
Q DOES THAT MEAN SHE DIDN'T DO IT?
A I DIDN'T SEE HER DO IT. I HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER SHE DID IT OR NOT.
Q SHE COULD HAVE. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW?
A I DON'T KNOW.
Q YOU INDICATED I THINK, SIR, THAT THERE WERE LIKE -- YOU COUNTED 28 POLICE OFFICERS AT THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, DIFFERENT NAMES?
A THERE WERE 28 NAMES ON A LOG THAT SAID AT SOME TIME OR ANOTHER, THEY ARRIVED.
Q UH-HUH.
DOES THAT MEAN THAT THERE WERE 28 OFFICERS AT THAT SCENE AT THE SAME TIME?
A COULD BE. I HAVE NO IDEA. I WASN'T KEEPING TRACK OF EVERY SINGLE OFFICER'S MOVEMENTS AND HOW MANY WERE THERE AT ANY PARTICULAR TIME.
Q LET ME ASK YOU THIS, SIR.
WAS THERE A -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY THE TERM "SHIFT CHANGE"?
A YES.
Q WAS THERE A CHANGE OF SHIFT FROM THE TIME THAT YOU FIRST WENT TO THE LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY AT APPROXIMATELY 2:10 A.M. UNTIL 10:00 A.M. IN THE MORNING?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?
A THE MORNING WATCH SHIFT --
Q HOW DOES THAT WORK?
A -- GETS OFF AT ABOUT 7:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING AND THE DAY WATCH SHIFT COMES ON, HAS THEIR ROLL CALL 6:30 IN THE MORNING AND USUALLY HITS THE STREET BETWEEN 7:00 AND 7:15 IN THE MORNING. SO THAT'S WHEN THAT CHANGE WOULD OCCUR, AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.
Q UH-HUH.
SO SOME OFFICERS LEAVE AT 7:15, GO OFF DUTY AND OTHERS COME ON?
A YES.
Q AND THAT OCCURRED BETWEEN 2:00 AND 10:00 IN THE MORNING ON JUNE THE 13TH?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE. IN THIS CASE, THEY MAY NOT HAVE BEEN DONE. THEY MAY HAVE WORKED OVERTIME.
OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
Q BY MS. CLARK: THEN WAS THERE A SHIFT CHANGE BETWEEN 2:00 IN THE MORNING AND 10:00 IN THE MORNING ON JUNE 13TH?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: COULD I --
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: LET ME FIRST ASK YOU SOMETHING, SIR.
DID YOU LOOK AT THE CRIME SCREEN LOG BEFORE COMING TO COURT TODAY?
A NOT TODAY, NO.
Q BEFORE COMING TO COURT YESTERDAY?
A I BELIEVE I SAW IT YESTERDAY.
Q OKAY.
DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE WHETHER IT SHOWED OFFICERS COMING AND GOING FROM THAT CRIME SCENE?
A WELL, THERE'S A TIME IN AND A TIME OUT ON THE CRIME SCENE LOG, YES.
Q SO WHEN YOU WERE COUNTING ALL OF THE NAMES ON THE LIST -- LET ME SHOW IT TO YOU AND ASK YOU.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: I FORGOT MY LAST QUESTION.
THE COURT: I THINK WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE CHECKED IN AND OUT OF THE CRIME SCENE.
MS. CLARK: YES.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WHEN YOU WERE COUNTING ALL THE NAMES ON THE LIST, SIR, THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THEY WERE ALL THERE TOGETHER --
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DOES THAT NECESSARILY MEAN THEY WERE ALTOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME?
A NO.
THE COURT: THIS IS A DEFENSE EXHIBIT?
MS. CLARK: 1027, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MS. CLARK: REGARDING THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR, DO YOU RECALL THAT THERE WAS A PALM TREE AT THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A YES.
Q NOW, THE FEMALE WHO IS IN THE WHITE SHIRT LOOKING AT THIS PHOTOGRAPH, CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER SHE'S STANDING OUT ON THE SIDEWALK OR ON THE GRASS?
A WELL, SHE'S EITHER ON THE SIDEWALK OR THE GRASS BECAUSE IT APPEARS THAT SHE'S OUTSIDE OF THAT PLANTED AREA THAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER.
Q UH-HUH.
AND THE GENTLEMAN WHO'S -- LET ME USE THE LASER.
CAN YOU SEE WHERE I'M POINTING WITH THE LASER, SIR? SEE THE GENTLEMAN WHOSE SHOULDER IS HERE (INDICATING)?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
CAN YOU TELL IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH WHETHER HE'S STANDING ON THAT WALKWAY WITH THE BLOOD ON IT OR WHETHER HE'S STANDING ON THE SIDEWALK AREA?
A I CAN'T BE POSITIVE, BUT I WOULD SAY IT LOOKS LIKE HE'S PROBABLY STANDING ON THE SIDEWALK.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION. MOVE TO STRIKE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: IT LOOKS TO YOU LIKE HE'S STANDING ON THE SIDEWALK YOU SAY?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT AS LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY SIR?
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
COUNSEL CAN ASK CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE WITNESS IS TURNED AWAY TALKING THE OTHER DIRECTION, WHICH I DIDN'T HEAR EITHER.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID YOU SAY, SIR?
A I SAID IT APPEARS AS IF HE'S STANDING ON THE SIDEWALK, BUT FROM THIS ANGLE, I CAN'T BE SURE EXACTLY WHERE HE'S STANDING.
Q UH-HUH.
THIS PHOTOGRAPH, DO YOU THINK IT'S A CLEAR PHOTOGRAPH IN TERMS OF THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE CRIME SCENE.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT, CRITICIZING THE PHOTOGRAPH.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MAYBE WE CAN HAVE SOME EXPERT FROM OUR TELEPHOTO LENSES BACK HERE AS TO DISTORTION BY VARIOUS LENSES.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS.
YOU WERE AT THE CRIME SCENE, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU KNOW THE DISTANCES BETWEEN THINGS, RIGHT?
A ROUGHLY.
Q DOES THIS COMPORT WITH YOUR MEMORY OF THE DISTANCES THAT YOU SAW WHEN YOU WERE THERE BETWEEN THE GATE, THE SIDEWALK, THE WALKWAY, THE PALM TREE?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT'S VAGUE AND THAT'S COMPOUND AND THAT'S AN UNINTELLIGIBLE QUESTION.
THE COURT: YOU KNOW, IT IS A COMPOUND QUESTION AND WE DID HAVE A VIEW OF THE SCENE BY THE JURORS. THEY DID VIEW IT FOR A SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF TIME FROM ACROSS THE STREET AND I THINK THEY KNOW THE PERSPECTIVES. I THINK THEY KNOW -- THEY TOOK NOTE OF WHERE THE PALM TREE WAS.
MS. CLARK: I WOULD LIKE TO ELICIT TESTIMONY, YOUR HONOR, SO I HAVE SOMETHING IN THE RECORD SO I CAN REFER BACK TO LATER.
THE COURT: WELL, YOU CAN REFER BACK TO THE VIEW OF THE SCENE.
MS. CLARK: BUT WITH RESPECT TO THIS PARTICULAR TIME, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK SOME PARTICULAR QUESTIONS ABOUT --
MR. COCHRAN: THE COURT'S ALREADY RULED.
THE COURT: IT'S ALSO NOON.
MS. CLARK: CAN I ASK ONE MORE QUESTION THEN BEFORE WE BREAK?
THE COURT: ONE MORE.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: SEE THESE OFFICERS DOWN HERE, SIR?
A YES.
Q WHERE DO THEY APPEAR TO BE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE PALM TREE?
A AGAIN, THE DEPTH PERCEPTION IS VERY BAD, BUT I WOULD SAY THEY WERE STANDING IN FRONT OF THE PALM TREE PROBABLY SOMEWHERE AROUND THE CURB OR IN THE STREET ITSELF.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE NOON HOUR.
PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITION TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU, DON'T ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU REGARDING THE CASE.
WE'LL SEE YOU BACK HERE AT 1:30.
DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, YOU'RE EXCUSED AND ORDERED TO RETURN AT 1:30.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LET ME SEE COUNSEL JUST BRIEFLY.
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
(AT 12:00 P.M., THE NOON RECESS
WAS TAKEN UNTIL 1:30 P.M. OF
THE SAME DAY.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 1995
1:30 P.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
(APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL THE PARTIES ARE AGAIN PRESENT.
COUNSEL, ANYTHING WE NEED TO DISCUSS BEFORE WE INVITE THE JURORS TO JOIN US?
DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED.
LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON.
THE COURT: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND.
RONALD PHILLIPS,
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE NOON RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.
AND, MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONCLUDE YOUR REDIRECT.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MS. CLARK:
Q YOU RECALL WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS SHOWN TO YOU BY THE DEFENSE I THINK MARKED D-127?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
I THINK WHEN YOU LEFT OFF, YOU WERE INDICATING THAT THE POLICE OFFICERS SHOWN IN THE RIGHT-HAND --
A MAY I GET DOWN, YOUR HONOR?
Q YES. SORRY ABOUT THAT.
YOU WERE INDICATING THAT THESE POLICE OFFICERS I'VE INDICATED WITH LASER LIGHT YOU BELIEVE WERE STANDING ON -- EITHER ON THE STREET OR ON THE CURB IN FRONT OF THE LOCATION?
A WELL --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. I THINK THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE.
I THINK HE CAN TELL US WHAT HE SAW WITHOUT RECAPITULATING AFTER LUNCH.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WITH THE DEPTH PERCEPTION, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL WHERE THEY ARE STANDING. BUT IN RELATION TO THE PALM TREE, I'D SAY EITHER ON THE CURB OR POSSIBLY IN THE STREET, AT LEAST ON THIS SIDE OF THE WALKWAY FOR SURE (INDICATING).
Q BY MS. CLARK: UH-HUH.
AND YOU INDICATED --
LET ME ASK YOU THEN, THIS WAS THE PERSON THAT YOU INDICATED WAS WHERE?
A WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT PERSON IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PALM TREE PROBABLY ON THE SIDEWALK AREA. BUT AGAIN, DEPTH PERCEPTION, I DON'T KNOW IF HE'S STANDING IN THE GRASS OR ON THE SIDEWALK.
Q IT'S HARD TO TELL ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS IT?
A IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL.
Q UH-HUH.
AND THIS PERSON YOU INDICATE AS ROKAHR WAS PHOTOGRAPHER ROKAHR?
A YES.
Q AND CAN YOU TELL WHERE HE IS, WHETHER HE'S IN THE SHRUBBERY OR ON THE SIDEWALK?
A I CAN'T TELL WHERE HE'S STANDING.
Q NOW, THIS PERSON IS THE PHOTOGRAPHER THAT TOOK PICTURES AT THE CRIME SCENE?
A YES.
Q AND DOES A PHOTOGRAPHER HAVE TO GET -- WALK INTO THE CRIME SCENE IN ORDER TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE EVIDENCE?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR, WHAT HE HAS TO DO. CONCLUSION, SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: HOW DOES A PHOTOGRAPHER GET INTO A CRIME SCENE? HOW DOES A PHOTOGRAPHER GET TO TAKE PICTURES OF THE EVIDENCE?
A WELL, AS THE EVIDENCE IS PRESENTED, THE DETECTIVE IN CHARGE OF THE INVESTIGATION WILL ASK HIM TO TAKE CERTAIN PHOTOGRAPHS AS THE INVESTIGATION IS TAKING PLACE. HE'LL STAND IN THE AREA OR STAND OUTSIDE THE AREA UNTIL SOME EVIDENCE OR SOMETHING THAT THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER WANTS TO BE PHOTOGRAPHED COMES ALONG, AND THEN HE'LL CALL HIM IN TO PHOTOGRAPH THAT PARTICULAR PIECE OF EVIDENCE OR ITEM AND THEN HE'LL BACK OFF AGAIN. HE'S READY TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS ALL ALONG THE CRIME SCENE.
Q SO IS THIS A PERSON THAT HAS AUTHORITY TO BE IN THE CRIME SCENE?
A AT THE DIRECTION OF THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER, YES.
Q OKAY.
AND THEN THE PERSON HERE THAT YOU INDICATED -- AND HERE THAT YOU INDICATED ARE CORONER'S INVESTIGATORS?
A YES.
Q DO CORONER'S -- WHAT DO CORONER'S INVESTIGATORS HAVE TO DO WITH RESPECT TO THE BODIES?
A WELL, THEY HAVE TO PREPARE THE BODIES TO BE MOVED FROM THE LOCATION. THEY HAVE TO BE IN THE AREA.
Q UH-HUH.
SO DO THEY HAVE AUTHORITY TO BE INSIDE THE CRIME SCENE?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT ABOUT THIS PERSON HERE YOU INDICATED, DENNIS FUNG, THE CRIMINALIST?
A YES.
Q WHAT DOES THE CRIMINALIST DO AT A CRIME SCENE?
A COLLECT AND BOOK, PREPARE EVIDENCE. HE'S IN A CRIME SCENE UNDER THE DIRECTION OF AN INVESTIGATING OFFICER OR ON HIS OWN DIRECTION AS HE GOES ALONG THE CRIME SCENE.
Q AND DOES HE HAVE TO BE ALLOWED INTO THE CRIME SCENE IN ORDER TO DO THAT?
A YES.
Q SO THE FOUR PEOPLE THAT WE SEE HERE, THE PHOTOGRAPHER, THE CRIMINALIST, THE CORONER'S INVESTIGATORS THAT APPEAR TO BE IN THE CRIME SCENE ALL GENERALLY HAVE AUTHORITY TO BE THERE?
A YES, AT THE PROPER TIME.
Q UH-HUH.
THANK YOU, SIR.
HAVE A -- GO AHEAD AND HAVE A SEAT.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, WHO IS PERMITTED TO TOUCH THE BODY OR DO ANYTHING ASSOCIATED CLOSELY WITH THE BODY OF A HOMICIDE VICTIM?
A WELL, THE CORONER'S OFFICE IS THE ONLY ONE ALLOWED TO TOUCH THE BODY AND ACTUALLY GO THROUGH THE POCKETS OF THE BODY AND PULL ANYTHING OUT OF THE POCKETS OR OFF THE BODY, OF THE DECEASED.
HOMICIDE DETECTIVES DON'T DO THAT. WE DON'T MOVE THE BODIES UNTIL THE CORONER'S OFFICE ARRIVES, AND THEY ACTUALLY DO THE MOVING OF THE BODY.
Q AND THEY'RE THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED TO MOVE THE BODY, AREN'T THEY?
A YES.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, CAN WE CUT THE FEED?
PEOPLE'S 46.
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, YOU SEE THIS SCENE AS YOU'VE IDENTIFIED IT BEFORE; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR?
A YES.
Q SEE THE PALM TREE THERE?
A YES.
Q AND THAT PALM TREE, DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE IN THE SAME LOCATION AS THE ONE SHOWN IN THE EARLIER PHOTOGRAPH?
A YES.
Q SO SOMEONE -- THAT'S ALL.
NOW, LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, SIR.
YOU WERE SHOWN A PICTURE OF A SPEED DIALER INSIDE OF NICOLE BROWN'S CONDOMINIUM UPON WHICH WAS MARKED "DADDY"?
A YES. YES.
Q COULD YOU TELL IF THAT "DADDY" REFERRED TO HER FATHER OR THE CHILDREN'S FATHER?
MR. COCHRAN: THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: IF YOU CAN TELL FROM THE PHOTOGRAPH.
MR. COCHRAN: I DIDN'T HEAR WHAT YOU SAID.
THE COURT: IF HE CAN TELL FROM THE PHOTOGRAPH. BUT HE SAID HE HAD NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S RIGHT.
THE COURT: SO -- NO. IT'S OVERRULED.
IF HE CAN TELL FROM THE PHOTOGRAPH.
CAN YOU TELL FROM THE PHOTOGRAPH WHO "DADDY" IS?
THE WITNESS: NO, SIR.
Q BY MS. CLARK: IF YOU HAD KNOWN THAT THAT WAS MR. SIMPSON'S PHONE NUMBER, WOULD YOU HAVE DIALED IT?
A NO.
Q WHY NOT?
A BECAUSE I WANTED TO TRY AND MAKE THE NOTIFICATION IN PERSON.
Q SIR, WHEN YOU WENT TO ROCKINGHAM, HOW LONG DID YOU INTEND TO SPEND THERE?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I THINK THAT'S --
MS. CLARK: THIS IS FOUNDATIONAL, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: AS SHORT A TIME AS POSSIBLE. I MEAN WE WENT THERE --
MR. COCHRAN: HE'S ANSWERED THAT, YOUR HONOR.
MS. CLARK: HE HASN'T.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
ASK THE NEXT QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND YOU WENT THERE WHY?
A WELL, I WENT THERE TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION AND TO ASSIST MR. SIMPSON IF HE NEEDED ANY ASSISTANCE WHATSOEVER. I NEEDED TO HAVE HIS CHILDREN PICKED UP AT WEST L.A. STATION. I WAS GOING TO OFFER HIM THAT SERVICE. I WAS ALSO GOING TO ASK HIM TO TRY TO MAKE EFFORTS TO NOT GO TO THE BUNDY LOCATION TO SEE THAT SCENE.
Q WAS IT YOUR INTENTION TO RETURN TO THE BUNDY SCENE?
A AFTER ROCKINGHAM?
Q YES.
A NO.
Q NOW, DO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE WHETHER THE CORONER'S REPRESENTATIVES STAYED AROUND AFTER THE BODIES OF RON AND NICOLE WERE MOVED?
A NO, I DON'T.
Q DO YOU KNOW -- THE PHOTOGRAPH SHOWN TO YOU BY DEFENSE COUNSEL, D-1027, DO YOU RECALL THAT PHOTOGRAPH, THE ONE I JUST SHOWED YOU BEFORE THE LAST ONE?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME THAT PICTURE WAS TAKEN?
A NO, I DON'T.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU INDICATED THAT YOU SPOKE TO CATHY RANDA ON THE TELEPHONE, SIR?
A I SPOKE TO A CATHY. I DON'T KNOW HER LAST NAME.
Q BEFORE YOU SPOKE TO HER, WHEN YOU ASKED ARNELLE WHERE HER FATHER WAS AND SHE TOLD YOU THAT SHE DIDN'T KNOW, WAS THAT --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THIS QUESTION IS OBJECTIONABLE, CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
MS. CLARK: THIS IS WHAT WAS EARLIER TESTIFIED TO. BASED UPON HIS SUBSEQUENT ACTION.
MR. COCHRAN: IT'S NOT CLEAR.
MS. CLARK: TALKED ABOUT IT ON DIRECT AND CROSS, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: AFTER HE SPOKE TO ARNELLE, WHAT'S THE QUESTION?
MS. CLARK: I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FINISH IT.
THE COURT: WHAT'S THE QUESTION. AFTER HE SPOKE TO ARNELLE, WHAT?
MS. CLARK: AFTER HE SPOKE TO ARNELLE AND AFTER YOU ASKED ARNELLE WHERE HER FATHER WAS AND SHE TOLD YOU SHE DIDN'T KNOW, DID YOU GO --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THIS PART AS HEARSAY.
THE COURT: AFTER HE SPOKE TO ARNELLE.
MS. CLARK: OKAY. WHEN --
YOUR HONOR, THIS IS A SUBJECT MATTER HE'S TESTIFIED TO ON DIRECT AND ON CROSS BEFORE.
THE COURT: I REALIZE THAT, BUT THERE'S AN OBJECTION AT THIS POINT.
HE SPOKE TO ARNELLE, THEN WHAT?
Q BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID ARNELLE TELL YOU ABOUT WHERE HER FATHER WAS?
MR. COCHRAN: HEARSAY.
MS. CLARK: THIS EXPLAINS SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: ARNELLE NEVER TOLD ME WHERE HER FATHER WAS.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID SHE INDICATE TO YOU?
A ARE YOU TALKING OUTSIDE THE HOUSE OR AFTER WE CAME INSIDE THE HOUSE?
Q YES. OUTSIDE THE HOUSE.
A SHE -- I ASKED HER IF SHE KNEW WHERE HER FATHER WAS AND SHE MADE SOME GESTURE TOWARD THE HOUSE AND SAID, " IS HE IN THE HOUSE," OR, "ISN'T HE THERE?" I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. AT THAT TIME, PHIL VANNATTER BEGAN TALKING TO HER AND I DIDN'T TALK TO HER ANYMORE.
Q THEN INSIDE THE HOUSE, DID YOU HAVE FURTHER CONVERSATIONS WITH HER ABOUT WHERE HER FATHER WAS?
A I ASKED HER IF SHE COULD FIND OUT WHERE HER FATHER WAS AT AND THEN SHE TOLD ME CATHY, HIS SECRETARY, WOULD KNOW WHERE HER FATHER WAS AT AND THAT SHE WOULD CALL HER.
Q AND THEN SHE MADE A PHONE CALL?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU -- AND THEN YOU SPOKE TO CATHY. IS THAT WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO EARLIER?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU SPOKE TO CATHY, DID YOU TELL HER THE DEFENDANT'S EX-WIFE HAD BEEN KILLED?
A I MENTIONED -- I BELIEVE I MENTIONED -- NOT TO CATHY, NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THEN YOU INDICATED THAT YOU CALLED THE DEFENDANT IN CHICAGO?
A YES.
Q NOW, AFTER YOU ADVISED HIM THAT HIS EX-WIFE HAD BEEN KILLED, YOU INDICATED ON CROSS-EXAMINATION THAT HE SAID, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED? OH, MY GOD, NICOLE IS DEAD."
DO YOU RECALL THAT TESTIMONY?
A YES.
Q WAS THERE ANY PAUSE BETWEEN HIS QUESTION, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," AND, "OH, MY GOD, NICOLE IS DEAD"?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. HE'S ALREADY DESCRIBED THIS BEFORE. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. IT'S IMPROPER.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO COUNSEL'S SPEAKING OBJECTIONS.
THE COURT: WAIT. OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: HE BECAME UPSET AND MADE THAT STATEMENT, AND THEN HE CONTINUED TO BE UPSET AND CONTINUED TO TALK ON THE TELEPHONE TO HIMSELF, AND IT TOOK ME SEVERAL SECONDS TO GET HIM TO TALK TO ME AGAIN, TO HAVE HIM LISTEN TO ME AND HE SEEMED VERY, VERY UPSET.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WAS THERE ANY PAUSE AFTER THIS STATEMENT, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED"?
A NO.
Q DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO OFFER ANY INFORMATION OR INTERJECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR CONCLUSION. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: NO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DID HE EVER REPEAT, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," AFTER THAT, THAT ONE TIME?
A NO. HE JUST KEPT REPEATING OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT NICOLE HAD BEEN KILLED.
Q DID HE EVER ASK ABOUT THE CHILDREN BEFORE YOU BROUGHT UP THAT SUBJECT ABOUT WHERE THEY WERE?
A NO. EVENTUALLY WHEN I GOT HIS ATTENTION AGAIN IS WHEN I MENTIONED THE CHILDREN.
YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THIS CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE VERY QUICKLY. HE WAS TALKING AND I WAS TALKING AND EVERYBODY WAS A LITTLE BIT EXCITED.
Q UH-HUH.
BUT YOU WERE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP THE CHILDREN FIRST?
A WELL, I TOLD HIM, I SAID, "MR. SIMPSON, TRY TO GET AHOLD OF YOURSELF. I HAVE YOUR CHILDREN AT THE POLICE STATION."
Q OKAY.
AND AT THAT POINT, HE ASKED YOU WHY ARE THEY AT THE STATION?
A YES.
Q AND WAS IT AFTER THAT POINT THAT HE TOLD YOU HE WOULD TAKE THE NEXT FLIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU THEN -- AT SOME POINT, YOU OFFERED HIM YOUR PAGER NUMBER AS YOU TESTIFIED. WHEN WAS THAT?
A THAT WAS TOWARDS THE END OF THE CONVERSATION WHEN I SAID, "IF YOU NEED SOMETHING, TAKE MY PAGER NUMBER DOWN AND MY OFFICE NUMBER DOWN AND GIVE ME A CALL IF I CAN DO ANYTHING FOR YOU."
AND THEN WHEN I GOT BACK TO THE STATION LATER ON THAT DAY, THERE WAS A MESSAGE THAT HE HAD CALLED.
Q SO HE DID TAKE YOUR PAGER NUMBER DOWN WHEN YOU GAVE IT TO HIM?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR. THAT ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: BUT AFTER YOU GAVE THE PAGER NUMBER, HE DID IN FACT PAGE YOU?
A AS I SAID, I GAVE HIM MY PAGER NUMBER AND MY OFFICE NUMBER. HE DID NOT PAGE ME. HE CALLED ME AT THE OFFICE, LEFT A MESSAGE THROUGH THE DESK PERSONNEL AT THE OFFICE, AND THAT'S THE PINK SLIP I GOT AS A MESSAGE THAT MR. SIMPSON HAD CALLED.
AND SO HE DID NOT CALL ME ON MY PAGER.
Q AND WAS IT AFTER -- AND DID HIS REQUEST TO SPEAK TO ARNELLE CONCLUDE YOUR CONVERSATION?
A YES. I DID NOT TALK TO HIM AGAIN.
Q NOW, COUNSEL WAS SHOWING YOU YOUR REPORT. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU -- I BELIEVE MR. COCHRAN ENDED AT THE END OF PAGE 1.
LET'S GO ON TO PAGE 2, AT THE END OF YOUR REPORT, ASK YOU TO READ THAT.
MR. COCHRAN: TO HIMSELF.
MS. CLARK: YES, AS HE'S DOING.
THE WITNESS: YES.
I DIDN'T DO THAT.
MS. CLARK: RIGHT AFTER LUNCH.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
AT THE END OF YOUR REPORT, SIR, WHAT WAS THE -- WHAT DID YOU PUT DOWN?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. HE READ THE REPORT AND TESTIFIED. IMPROPER QUESTION.
THE COURT: HEARSAY. SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: ALSO BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED, ALSO IMPROPER.
MS. CLARK: IT HAS NOT BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: I ALREADY SUSTAINED IT. IT'S HEARSAY.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: SIR, DID YOU -- WHEN YOU INFORMED THE DEFENDANT THAT HIS EX-WIFE HAD BEEN KILLED, DID YOU SAY SHE HAD BEEN MURDERED?
A NO. I SAID SHE HAD BEEN KILLED.
Q DID HE ASK YOU IF IT WAS IN A TRAFFIC ACCIDENT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. THIS IS IMPROPER DIRECT EXAMINATION -- IMPROPER REDIRECT EXAMINATION. THIS IS IMPROPER REDIRECT EXAMINATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: NO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND DID YOU FIND THAT TO BE UNUSUAL, SIR?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR, UNUSUAL. OBJECT TO THAT. THERE'S NO STANDARD.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
Q BY MS. CLARK: HAVE YOU MADE ANY NOTIFICATIONS --
THE COURT: COUNSEL, WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE SLOPPY ON SPEAKING OBJECTIONS ON BOTH SIDES HERE. SO -- NO. TRUST ME. ON BOTH SIDES.
SO AT THIS POINT, MAKE YOUR OBJECTION, STATE ONE OF 12 RECOGNIZED LEGAL GROUNDS TO OBJECT. I'LL RULE. IF I NEED AN EXPLANATION, I'LL ASK FOR IT.
THANK YOU.
PROCEED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: HOW MANY NOTIFICATIONS OF DEATH HAVE YOU MADE TO NEXT OF KIN IN YOUR YEARS AS A POLICE OFFICER AND DETECTIVE?
A I DON'T KNOW. FAR TOO MANY I'M SURE. COUPLE HUNDRED.
Q AND WAS IT COMMON IN YOUR EXPERIENCE FOR NEXT OF KIN TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THE HOMICIDE HAD OCCURRED?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. OBJECT TO THE FROM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR, AND I WOULD BE GLAD TO EMBELLISH IT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
YOU CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION YES OR NO.
THE WITNESS: THE QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE?
THE COURT: IS IT COMMON IN YOUR EXPERIENCE FOR THE NEXT OF KIN TO ASK QUESTIONS AS TO HOW THE DEATH OCCURRED?
THE WITNESS: USUALLY OCCURS THAT WAY, YES.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND SO DID YOU FIND THE DEFENDANT'S RESPONSE TO BE UNUSUAL IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
MS. CLARK: HIS BELIEF ABOUT HIS OWN --
THE COURT: LET ME JUST TALK TO YOU BRIEFLY WITHOUT THE REPORTER.
MR. DARDEN: STILL A SIDEBAR, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: I KNOW.
MS. CLARK: BUT HE ASKED FOR IT.
THE COURT: I ASKED FOR IT.
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
THE COURT: MADAM REPORTER?
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)
THE COURT: WE'RE OVER AT THE SIDEBAR.
MR. SHAPIRO.
MR. SHAPIRO: I WOULD LIKE TO DRAW TO THE ATTENTION OF THE COURT THE DEMEANOR OF JUROR 602. I HAVE BEEN WATCHING HIM FOR THE LAST 25 MINUTES.
AND WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A MOMENT AGO WHEN HE TURNED HIS HEAD AND ONCE WHEN HE LOOKED AT THE WITNESS STAND, HE HAS CONTINUALLY STARED OUT INTO SPACE. EVEN WHEN ALL OF THE LAWYERS APPROACHED THE WITNESS STAND, HE DID NOT MOVE HIS HEAD AWAY FROM HIS FIXED POSITION, WHICH APPEARS TO BE GOING TOWARDS THE DIRECTION OF MYSELF, DEPUTY MAGNERA AND MR. SIMPSON.
I POINTED THIS OUT TO DEPUTY MAGNERA. HE HAS NOTICED IT ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS AND THE PRESS HAS REPORTED THIS. AND IT APPEARS THAT THIS MAN IS NOT CONCENTRATING AT ALL ON THESE PROCEEDINGS AND I WOULD LIKE THE RECORD TO NOTE THAT AND THEN FOR THE COURT TO PAY SOME PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO THIS JUROR.
THE COURT: I'LL MAKE MY OWN OBSERVATIONS. THANK YOU.
MS. CLARK: ANY OTHER OBSERVATIONS?
THE COURT: HE JUST ASKED ME TO WATCH. I'LL WATCH.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
MS. CLARK: JUST A COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
THE COURT: GIVE ME JUST TWO SECONDS HERE.
MS. CLARK: SURE.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: SIR, DID ANYONE -- WHILE YOU WERE AT ROCKINGHAM THAT MORNING, DID ANYONE TELL YOU WHAT TIME THE DEFENDANT ACTUALLY LEFT FOR THE AIRPORT?
A NO.
Q I THINK YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT CATHY THEN -- CATHY TOLD YOU HE TOOK A RED EYE FLIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND THAT WAS WHEN YOU WERE ON THE TELEPHONE?
A YES.
Q BUT NO SPECIFIC TIME WAS MENTIONED TO YOU?
A NO. JUST THAT HE TOOK A RED EYE TO CHICAGO THE NIGHT BEFORE.
Q DID SHE TELL YOU WHAT AIRLINE?
A I DON'T BELIEVE SHE DID.
Q NOW, AFTER SHE TOLD YOU THAT, DID YOU GO OUT AND TELL SOMEBODY THAT THE DEFENDANT HAD TAKEN A RED EYE FLIGHT TO CHICAGO?
A I DIDN'T TELL THEM THAT HE HAD TAKEN A RED EYE FLIGHT, NO.
Q WHAT DID YOU SAY?
A JUST SAID I MADE CONTACT AND TALKED TO MR. SIMPSON IN CHICAGO.
Q NOW, SOMETIME AFTER THAT TELEPHONE CONVERSATION, YOU STATED THAT YOU WERE IN THE BREAKFAST ROOM OF THE LOCATION AND THAT DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN CAME TO SEE YOU?
A YES.
Q HOW LONG AFTER THE TELEPHONE CONVERSATION WAS THAT?
A FIVE MINUTES, NO MORE THAN 10 MINUTES, SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA.
Q WAS HE ANYWHERE NEAR YOU WHEN YOU WERE HAVING THE TELEPHONE CONVERSATION?
A NO.
Q HE CAME WALKING IN FROM THE OUTSIDE. WAS THAT WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU MADE CONTACT WITH HIM, DID YOU TELL HIM THAT YOU JUST HEARD THE DEFENDANT TOOK A RED EYE FLIGHT TO CHICAGO?
A NO.
Q WHAT WAS YOUR CONVERSATION WITH HIM WHEN YOU SAW HIM IN THE BREAKFAST ROOM?
A HE WANTED TO TALK TO ME. HE WANTED TO SHOW ME SOMETHING. I WENT WITH HIM AND HE SHOWED ME WHAT HE WANTED TO SHOW ME. IT WAS BASICALLY HIS CONVERSATION EXPLAINING TO ME WHAT HE HAD FOUND.
Q AND DID YOU TELL HIM ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR CONVERSATION WITH CATHY?
A I MAY HAVE MENTIONED TO HIM THAT I MADE CONTACT WITH MR. SIMPSON. I SUPPOSE THAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED, BUT THAT WOULD HAVE JUST BEEN IN PASSING.
Q UH-HUH.
JUST THAT YOU TALKED TO HIM?
A I'M SURE I TOLD EVERYBODY THERE AT SOMETIME OR ANOTHER THAT I HAD MADE CONTACT WITH HIM.
Q AND, SIR, DID YOU MAKE NOTE IN YOUR REPORT OF THE DEFENDANT'S REACTION TO THE NOTIFICATION CALL YOU MADE TO THE DEFENDANT IN CHICAGO?
A YES.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, WITH REGARD TO THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE SHOES THAT WE SAW OF THE VARIOUS DETECTIVES, WERE YOUR SHOES ALSO PHOTOGRAPHED?
A NO.
Q AND WERE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN'S SHOES PHOTOGRAPHED?
A NO.
Q WERE PHILLIPS' OR VANNATTER'S SHOES PHOTOGRAPHED?
A NO.
Q AND I BELIEVE I ASKED YOU THIS, BUT WERE -- DID YOU HAVE THE SHOE SIZES OF ANY OF THESE OFFICERS AT ALL?
A NO, SIR.
Q AND THESE SHOES WERE PHOTOGRAPHED AT WEST L.A. STATION?
A YES. IT WAS DONE IN AN INTERVIEW ROOM IN WEST L.A. STATION AND MOST OF THEM WERE DONE WITH THE OFFICER WEARING THE SHOE AND JUST PUTTING HIS FOOT ONTO A TABLE.
Q DO YOU HAVE A LOG INDICATING WHAT DAYS THOSE SHOES WERE PHOTOGRAPHED ON?
A NO. AS I SAID, IT OCCURRED OVER SEVERAL DAYS, THREE OR FOUR DAYS, BECAUSE THE OFFICERS HAVE DAYS OFF AND THERE WAS SEVERAL OFFICERS TO DO. SO I JUST PUT A LIST DOWN IN THE WATCH COMMANDER'S OFFICE THAT, "WHEN YOU COME TO WORK, COME SEE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS."
Q IS IT TRUE MOST OFFICERS HAVE AT LEAST TWO PAIRS OF SHOES?
A I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q HOW MANY -- YOU DIDN'T WEAR UNIFORMS VERY MUCH BACK THEN, BUT WHEN YOU LAST WORE A UNIFORM, DID YOU HAVE MORE THAN TWO PAIRS OF DEPARTMENT-ISSUED SHOES?
A NO. I'VE ONLY HAD ONE PAIR OF UNIFORM SHOES AT A TIME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
IF ONE OF THE OFFICERS TESTIFIED HERE, FOR INSTANCE, RISKE TESTIFIED HE HAD TWO PAIRS OF SHOES, DID THE MEMO GIVEN TO THE OFFICERS SAY, "TAKE A PICTURE OF THE SHOES YOU WERE WEARING ON JUNE 12TH OR JUNE 13TH?"
A I ASKED EVERY OFFICER THAT CAME UP IF THEY HAD THE SHOES ON THAT THEY WORE ON JUNE 12TH TO JUNE 13TH, AND I BELIEVE EVERY ONE OF THEM HAD THE SHOES ON.
Q BUT THESE OFFICERS HAD CONTINUED -- AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, HAD CONTINUED TO WEAR THESE SHOES FOR WHATEVER PERIOD OF TIME BEFORE THEY TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHS WHICH WE SAW; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q IN OTHER WORDS, THEY WEREN'T ALL TAKEN THE SAME DAY. SOME WERE TAKEN WITHIN A WEEK; IS THAT CORRECT?
A OVER A PERIOD OF THREE, FOUR DAYS, FIVE DAYS MAYBE EVEN.
Q NOW, YOU SAID THAT -- IN RESPONSE TO ONE OF MISS CLARK'S QUESTIONS, THAT IT'S UNUSUAL TO HAVE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE IN THE BRENTWOOD AREA; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I THINK IT IS, YES.
Q AND IN THE TIME YOU'VE BEEN OUT THERE WORKING IN HOMICIDE, YOU'VE HAD OBVIOUSLY A NUMBER OF HOMICIDES OUT IN THAT AREA ALSO; HAVE YOU NOT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU'VE HAD SOME DOUBLE HOMICIDES OUT THERE ALSO; HAVE YOU NOT?
A I DON'T RECALL -- WELL, WE'VE HAD MURDER SUICIDES WHERE ONE PERSON KILLS SOMEBODY AND THEN KILLS HIMSELF, AND THAT WOULD BE A MURDER SUICIDE, BUT THAT'S --
Q YOU'VE HAD CASES WHERE YOU HAVE TWO BODIES AND YOU HAD TO INVESTIGATE, MAKE A DETERMINATION, RIGHT?
A YEAH. MURDER SUICIDE.
Q THAT WOULD BE TWO BODIES, RIGHT?
A YES, SIR. THAT WOULD NOT BE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE.
Q IN THAT CONNECTION, WHEN YOU TALKED TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE, THERE'S NOTHING THAT PROHIBITED YOU FROM SAYING, "WE HAVE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE. I'M GOING TO CALL YOU BACK LATER. ALL I WANT TO DO IS GET SOME NUMBERS AND GIVE YOU THE FIRST CALL." YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO SAY, " THERE WAS A DOUBLE HOMICIDE IN BRENTWOOD AND INVOLVES O.J. SIMPSON," DID YOU?
A WELL, THEY ASKED ME WHAT I HAD. I TOLD THEM I HAD A DOUBLE HOMICIDE. I WOULD HAVE TOLD THEM -- IF I DIDN'T HAVE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE, I WOULD HAVE TOLD THEM I HAD A MURDER SUICIDE.
Q BUT THE POINT I WAS ASKING YOU THERE IS, THERE ARE NO REQUIREMENTS IN YOUR REGULATIONS TO SAY THAT YOU HAD A DOUBLE HOMICIDE INVOLVING O.J. SIMPSON'S EX-WIFE, WAS THERE?
A THERE IS NOTHING.
Q THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU VOLUNTEERED; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, IT IS.
Q WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME BY SAYING THAT TENDED TO EXACERBATE THE INTEREST IN THIS CASE, AT LEAST ON BEHALF OF MR. WILLIS, WHO YOU SHARED THIS INFORMATION WITH?
A WELL, IT WAS A TWO-EDGED SWORD. IT WOULD COME BACK TO HAUNT ME EITHER WAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BUT WE DON'T KNOW HOW IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IF YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TOLD HIM, DO WE?
A NO, I DON'T.
Q BECAUSE YOU TOLD HIM, DIDN'T YOU?
A YES, I DID.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, ON THIS JOB THAT THESE OFFICERS WORKED IN WEST LOS ANGELES -- I'M NOT GOING TO ASK YOU THE JOB -- BUT THIS WAS A MOONLIGHTING JOB A NUMBER OF OFFICERS WORKED ON IN WEST LOS ANGELES; IS THAT CORRECT?
A NO.
Q WELL, SOME OFFICERS WORKED ON.
A JUST MARK FUHRMAN AND MYSELF I BELIEVE WERE THE ONLY ONES FROM WEST LOS ANGELES THAT WORKED UP THERE.
Q WERE THERE OTHER OFFICERS THAT WORKED UP THERE ALSO?
A YES.
Q OTHER LAPD OFFICERS I BELIEVE?
A I BELIEVE THEY'RE LAPD, I BELIEVE THEY'RE LASO, I BELIEVE THERE'S SOME RETIRED FROM OTHER JURISDICTIONS ALSO.
Q HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THAT JOB?
A THROUGH A MUTUAL FRIEND.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN YOU WENT -- DID YOU GO FIRST OR DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GO FIRST?
A I BELIEVE -- I BELIEVE THAT THE INDIVIDUAL WHO GOT US THE JOB TOOK OVER A SITUATION THAT ALREADY EXISTED, AND IT WAS SEVERAL OF US ALL HIRED AT THE SAME TIME, MAYBE 10 OR 15 OF US ALL HIRED AT THE SAME TIME THE SAME NIGHT AS FAR AS GOING TO AN ORIENTATION, AND THEN WE STARTED OUR SHIFTS.
SO I THINK WE ALL STARTED AT THE SAME TIME, AND I'M NOT POSITIVE MARK FUHRMAN WAS IN THAT INITIAL GROUP, BUT HE PROBABLY COULD HAVE BEEN.
Q IF HE WAS NOT IN THE INITIAL GROUP, DID YOU TELL HIM ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR POSITION?
A NO. HE ALSO KNOWS THE SAME INDIVIDUAL.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU BOTH KNEW ABOUT IT AND YOU BOTH STARTED WORKING ON THIS JOB AND YOU WORKED FOR APPROXIMATELY A YEAR ON THAT JOB AT LEAST, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, IT'S TRUE, IS IT NOT, SIR, THAT PURSUANT TO THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT HOMICIDE MANUAL, EVIDENCE SHOULD BE BOOKED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD EVIDENCE BE RETAINED BY A PARTICULAR DETECTIVE IN THE COURSE OF THAT INVESTIGATION? ISN'T THAT TRUE?
A WELL, I WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT. EACH DETECTIVE HANDLES HIS OWN CASES HIS OWN WAY.
Q WELL, YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO -- AND AS AN EXPERIENCED LAPD DETECTIVE, YOU WOULDN'T CARRY EVIDENCE HOME, WOULD YOU, THAT YOU PICKED UP AT A SCENE?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: EXCEEDS THE SCOPE. EXCEEDS THE SCOPE OF REDIRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO ALLOW ME THAT ONE QUESTION. CAN I ASK THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR? COUNSEL OPENED IT WITH REGARDS TO THE SHOES.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. BEYOND THE SCOPE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WITH REGARD TO -- YOU WERE ASKED SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT SPECIAL ORDER NUMBER 21.
AND AGAIN, YOU'VE NEVER HAD OCCASION TO SPEAK WITH CHIEF WILLIE WILLIAMS ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR ORDER, HAVE YOU?
A NO, I HAVE NOT.
Q AND THE BACKGROUND OR HIS REASON FOR ISSUING IT, HAVE YOU?
A NO, I HAVE NOT.
Q AND IN THAT ORDER IN SEVERAL PLACES, IT TALKS ABOUT THE CORONER BEING IMMEDIATELY NOTIFIED; DOES IT NOT?
A YES.
Q WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT FOR A CORONER TO ARRIVE AT A SCENE NINE HOURS AFTER THE DISCOVERY OF BODIES, THAT THAT IS NOT IMMEDIATE UNDER ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT'S ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
HE CAN ANSWER.
THE WITNESS: IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED UP TO THAT, SIR. EACH HOMICIDE CASE HAS ITS OWN SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES WHICH DICTATE TIME, DICTATE WHAT WE DO AND HOW THINGS ARE DONE. EACH CASE IS A STORY OF ITS OWN.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: I UNDERSTAND THAT.
A THEY'RE NOT ALL THE SAME.
Q I UNDERSTAND THAT.
BUT DO YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT NINE HOURS IS NOT IMMEDIATE? WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
A NINE HOURS IS NOT IMMEDIATE AS FAR AS TAKING THE BODIES AWAY FROM A CRIME SCENE, NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU.
YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION AT ALL OF WHETHER OR NOT THE ICE CREAM IN THIS CUP YOU SAW ON THAT BANISTER WAS VANILLA OR STRAWBERRY OR CHOCOLATE CHIP COOKIE DOUGH, DO YOU?
A I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THAT ICE CREAM WAS, SIR.
Q AND YOU NEVER SAW A PICTURE OF IT, HAVE YOU?
A NO, SIR.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO -- JUST A QUESTION OR TWO REGARDING DEFENDANT'S 1027.
IN DEFENDANT'S 1027, YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO SEE IN DEFENDANT'S 1027 WHERE THAT YELLOW TAPE IS, CAN YOU?
A NO, SIR.
Q AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WERE YOU ABLE TO IDENTIFY THIS PERSON DEPICTED -- AND, DETECTIVE, YOU CAN STEP DOWN IF YOU CAN -- IDENTIFY THAT LADY? THERE APPEARS TO A LADY THERE IN THE FOREGROUND IN THE WHITE BLOUSE OR SHIRT ON.
A I DO NOT KNOW WHO THAT PERSON IS.
Q DO YOU KNOW THE NAME OF AN LAPD TRAINEE CRIMINALIST BY THE NAME OF MAZZOLA, M-A-Z-Z-O-L-A?
A I DON'T BELIEVE I EVER MET THAT PERSON, SIR.
Q DID YOU SEE A FEMALE BY THE NAME OF MAZZOLA AT THAT SCENE THAT MORNING WITH FUNG?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. HE JUST SAID HE NEVER HEARD OF THAT PERSON.
MR. COCHRAN: I AM ASKING IF HE SAW A FEMALE.
THE COURT: YOU SAID BY THE NAME OF MAZZOLA.
MR. COCHRAN: STRIKE THE NAME OF MAZZOLA.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU SEE A FEMALE ACCOMPANYING FUNG AT THE SCENE THAT MORNING EITHER AT ROCKINGHAM OR AT BUNDY?
A NO.
Q NOW, LESS WE GIVE CORONERS A BAD NAME, THE CORONER'S OFFICE IS NOT JUST A BODY REMOVAL SERVICE FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, ARE THEY?
A NO, THEY'RE NOT.
Q IN FACT, THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY CORONER HAS AN INDEPENDENT OBLIGATION TO CONDUCT THEIR OWN INVESTIGATION REGARDING THE TIME OF DEATH; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, SIR.
Q AND WE ARE DEALING WITH SPECIALLY-TRAINED INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE AN EXPERTISE IN SEEKING TO DETERMINE THE TIME OF DEATH WITH REGARD TO BODIES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. BEYOND THE SCOPE.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE OPENED IT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND THE CORONER'S OFFICE -- IN YOUR 28 YEARS, YOU KNOW THAT THE CORONER'S OFFICE CAN ASSIST IN DETERMINING THE TIME OF DEATH AND GENERALLY THE CORONERS DO COME TO COURT AND TESTIFY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q THEY ALSO ASSIST IN DETERMINING THE CAUSE OF DEATH; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q THEY ALSO ASSIST IN DETERMINING THE TYPE OF WEAPONS, A NUMBER OF WEAPONS USED IN A PARTICULAR INCIDENT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. WAY BEYOND THE SCOPE.
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A FEW MORE QUESTIONS.
THE COURT: I'M GOING TO ALLOW A LITTLE LEEWAY HERE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND IN THE COURSE OF THEIR INVESTIGATION, THEY CAN ALSO ASSIST IN THE IDENTITY OF PERPETRATORS ON OCCASION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THEY CAN HELP TO ASSIST IN THAT, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND IN ADDITION TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE, THE CRIMINALIST ALSO PLAYS A VITAL ROLE IN RETRIEVING EVIDENCE QUICKLY BEFORE IT STARTS TO BREAK DOWN OR DEGRADE OR BECOME IN ANY WAY AFFECTED BY THE ELEMENTS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I'M NOT A CRIMINALIST, SIR.
Q BUT YOU'VE USED CRIMINALISTS THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER; HAVE YOU NOT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU KNOW IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET THE CRIMINALIST OUT THERE EARLY TO COLLECT THE EVIDENCE; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
A GET THE CRIMINALIST OUT THERE TO COLLECT THE EVIDENCE. THAT'S THE REASON WE BRING THEM OUT, YES.
Q AND THAT'S WHAT PRESUMABLY FUNG IS DOING THERE IN DEFENDANT'S 1027; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I WOULD ASSUME THAT'S WHAT HE'S DOING.
Q AND WITH REGARD TO 1027 AND THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS -- YOU'RE NOT AN EXPERT IN PHOTOGRAPHS, ARE YOU?
A NO, SIR.
Q AND WHEN YOU WERE BEING ASKED ALL THOSE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHERE PEOPLE WERE STANDING, YOU WERE JUST GIVING US YOUR BEST ESTIMATE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q FINAL ANALYSIS, THAT PICTURE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE'S PROBABLY CORRECT, YOUR HONOR. I'LL WITHDRAW IT.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: BUT OUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS YOURS REGARDING THAT PHOTOGRAPH WHERE PEOPLE WERE STANDING --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: ARGUMENTATIVE AS WELL.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MAYBE WE'LL HAVE ONE OF OUR EXPERTS FROM THE BACK ROW TELL US WHAT THAT IS.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU GENERALLY WANT THE CRIMINALIST ON THE SCENE QUICKLY TO ENSURE THAT NO EVIDENCE HAS BEEN MOVED; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YOU WANT THE CRIMINALIST ON THE SCENE AS SOON AS YOU'RE READY FOR THEM TO CONDUCT WHATEVER THE JOB IS YOU ARE ASKING THEM TO DO.
Q AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, RIGHT?
A AS SOON AS YOU WANT THEM OR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
Q IN THIS CASE, THE CRIMINALIST CAME AFTER THE CORONERS CAME, RIGHT?
A AS I PREVIOUSLY STATED HERE, I DON'T KNOW WHEN THE CRIMINALISTS CAME.
THE COURT: WE'RE BEYOND THE SCOPE.
MR. COCHRAN: YOU MAY BE RIGHT, YOUR HONOR, IN THAT REGARD.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, LASTLY, WITH REGARD TO THE PHONE CONVERSATION TO MR. SIMPSON IN CHICAGO, THAT WAS THE REASON WHY YOU WENT OVER TO HIS HOUSE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q THIS WAS A PHONE CONVERSATION OF NO MORE THAN ONE MINUTE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I DIDN'T GO THERE TO MAKE A PHONE CONVERSATION. I WENT THERE TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION, YES.
Q TO HIM, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND IN THE COURSE OF THIS, YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR US THAT MR. SIMPSON SAID TO YOU, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE WAS KILLED."
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A YES.
Q AND IN THE COURSE OF THAT, YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR US THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS VERY UPSET; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q SO YOU HAD TO TRY AS BEST YOU COULD TO TRY AND CALM HIM DOWN AND GET HIM BACK TO WHERE HE WAS WHERE HE COULD BE COHERENT ON THE PHONE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A SO WE COULD CONTINUE A CONVERSATION, YES.
Q BECAUSE YOU WERE TRYING TO GIVE HIM INFORMATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU'RE NOT SURE AS YOU SIT HERE NOW AT WHAT POINT YOU ACTUALLY MENTIONED THE KIDS OR HIS CHILDREN; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A WHEN WE GOT HIM BACK ON -- WHEN I GOT HIM BACK ON TRACK AND TOLD HIM THAT I NEEDED TO TALK TO HIM AND TO CALM DOWN, THAT'S WHEN I TOLD HIM, I SAID, "WE HAVE YOUR KIDS AT THE POLICE STATION."
Q AFTER YOU GOT HIM TO CALM DOWN SO YOU COULD MAKE YOUR STATEMENT, HE THEN SAID, "WHAT ABOUT MY KIDS? WHY ARE THEY AT A POLICE STATION;" ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT IS CORRECT.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: HE RESPONDED TO WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE CHILDREN; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A HE ASKED ME WHY WE HAD HIS CHILDREN AT THE POLICE STATION.
Q AND IT WAS SHORTLY AFTER THAT, WAS IT NOT, THAT HE THEN ASKED TO SPEAK TO HIS DAUGHTER AND ARRANGEMENTS WERE MADE TO PICK UP THOSE CHILDREN; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND YOU NEVER ASKED HIM TO COME BACK TO LOS ANGELES. HE VOLUNTEERED TO COME BACK ON HIS OWN?
A HE TOLD ME HE WAS COMING BACK ON HIS OWN, YES.
Q AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US I THINK GRAPHICALLY THIS WAS A SHORT CONVERSATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND EVERYBODY WAS VERY EXCITED; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A WELL, YEAH, I THINK SO.
Q AND YOU WERE EXCITED?
A I THINK SO.
Q MR. SIMPSON WAS EXCITED?
A I THINK SO.
Q ARNELLE WAS EXCITED?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: WELL, OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. ARNELLE WAS NOT PART OF THE CONVERSATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ARNELLE WAS EXCITED?
A WELL, I COULD TELL SHE WAS UPSET OR EXCITED WHEN SHE WAS TALKING TO DEPUTY LANGE.
Q THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
YOU WILL NOT BE UPSET IF I DON'T ASK YOU ANY MORE QUESTIONS?
A NO, SIR.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
WELL, THANK YOU.
I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: TRULY ONE QUESTION. REALLY.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
Q DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, WHY WERE THERE NO PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN OF THE SHOES OF THE FOUR DETECTIVES; THAT IS YOURSELF, DETECTIVE VANNATTER, FUHRMAN AND LANGE?
A BECAUSE THE REQUEST I RECEIVED FROM DETECTIVE LANGE WAS TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF OFFICERS THAT ARRIVED AT THAT LOCATION THAT HAD GONE AROUND THAT CRIME SCENE LOCATION BEFORE THE DETECTIVES SHOWED UP.
Q BY THE TIME YOU GOT THERE, YOU SAW THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS. THEY WERE ALREADY THERE?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S TWO.
THE COURT: HERE COMES THREE.
MS. CLARK: LET ME SEE IF MY EMINENT PARTNER CAN TALK ME OUT OF IT.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: ANYTHING AS TO SHOEPRINTS, SHOE PHOTOS?
MR. COCHRAN: NO, YOUR HONOR, THANK YOU.
MAY DETECTIVE PHILLIPS REMAIN ON CALL?
THE COURT: YES.
ALL RIGHT.
DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, I'M GOING TO EXCUSE YOU FOR THE AFTERNOON. HOWEVER, YOU WILL REMAIN SUBJECT TO RECALL.
ALL RIGHT?
THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.
THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK, YOUR NEXT WITNESS, PLEASE.
MS. CLARK: YES.
PEOPLE CALL DETECTIVE TOM LANGE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. LANGE.
TOM LANGE,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
THE CLERK: RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, PLEASE.
YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT IN THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: TOM LANGE, T-O-M L-A-N-G-E, ALSO KNOWN AS FREDERICK, F-R-E-D-E-R-I-C-K.
THE CLERK: THANK YOU.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
Q DO PEOPLE ALSO CALL YOU FREDERICK?
A THAT'S ONE OF MY NAMES. YES.
Q I NEVER KNEW.
ALL RIGHT, SIR.
IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE TELL US, WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT?
A I'M A POLICE DETECTIVE FOR THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES ASSIGNED TO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION, HOMICIDE SPECIAL SECTION.
Q CAN YOU TELL US HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN SO ASSIGNED?
A I'VE BEEN WITH ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION SINCE NOVEMBER OF 1978. I'VE BEEN A POLICE OFFICER SINCE 1967, OCTOBER.
Q AND HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU BEEN A DETECTIVE?
A BEEN A DETECTIVE APPROXIMATELY 21 YEARS.
Q NOW, YOU'RE CURRENTLY A DETECTIVE, AREN'T YOU?
A YES.
Q YOU'RE A DETECTIVE WITH THE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION. WERE YOU PREVIOUSLY A DETECTIVE BEFORE YOU WERE AT THE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION?
A YES.
Q WHAT KIND OF DETECTIVE WERE YOU?
A I WAS A JUVENILE DETECTIVE, A ROBBERY DETECTIVE AND A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE.
Q AND HOW LONG WERE YOU A ROBBERY DETECTIVE?
A APPROXIMATELY ONE YEAR.
Q AND HOW LONG WERE YOU A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE BEFORE YOU WENT TO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION?
A APPROXIMATELY THREE YEARS.
Q NOW, IS ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION A DIFFERENT KIND OF SET OF DETECTIVES THAN THE REGULAR HOMICIDE DETECTIVE YOU WERE BEFORE?
A YES. ROBBERY-HOMICIDE, HOMICIDE SPECIAL UNIT THAT I'M ASSIGNED TO TAKES USUALLY HIGH PRIORITY CASES OR CASES THAT CONSUME A GREAT DEAL OF TIME, VERY INVOLVED CASES SUCH AS SERIAL KILLINGS, HIGH-PUBLICITY TYPE CASES.
Q NOW, WERE YOU -- CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, THEN WHAT IS IT -- WHAT ARE YOUR DUTIES SPECIFICALLY IN THE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION AS A DETECTIVE?
A WELL, I'M A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE. I INVESTIGATE HOMICIDES GENERALLY OF A HIGH PRIORITY NATURE, HIGH PROFILE NATURE, SERIAL KILLINGS.
ADDITIONALLY, WE BACK UP THE 18 GEOGRAPHICAL DIVISIONS IN THE CITY WHEN THEIR WORKLOAD BECOMES SUCH THAT THEY CAN'T HANDLE IT.
Q AND WHEN YOU SAY "CAN'T HANDLE IT," WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A WELL, WHEN THEY BECOME INUNDATED WITH A GREAT DEAL -- A GREAT NUMBER OF HOMICIDES. IF ONE PARTICULAR DIVISION WERE TO HAVE WHAT MIGHT BE CONSIDERED AN INORDINATE NUMBER OF HOMICIDES IN ONE WEEK, SAY 8, 10, 12, AND THEY JUST DIDN'T HAVE THE PEOPLE TO HANDLE THOSE PROPERLY, THEN WE WOULD PROBABLY BE CALLED IN TO TAKE SOME OF THOSE.
Q NOW, WHAT POINT WERE YOU ASSIGNED TO THIS PARTICULAR CASE?
A I WAS NOTIFIED AT HOME AT 3:00 A.M., APPROXIMATELY 3:00 A.M. ON JUNE 13TH.
Q AND AT WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A AT APPROXIMATELY 4:25 A.M.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHERE EXACTLY AT THAT LOCATION YOU PARKED YOUR CAR?
A YES. I PARKED ON BUNDY ON THE EAST SIDE OF BUNDY SOUTH OF DOROTHY.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT NO. 49.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR.
DO YOU SEE THE LOCATION DEPICTED ON THE PHOTOGRAPH ON THE MONITOR RIGHT NOW?
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LOCATION?
A YES. IT APPEARS TO BE LOOKING AT A NORTHWESTERLY DIRECTION FROM DOROTHY TO THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY.
Q CAN YOU LOCATE THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU PARKED YOUR CAR?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD STIPULATE HE PARKED AT DOROTHY AND BUNDY AND WE CAN MOVE ON.
MS. CLARK: MAY I PLEASE EXAMINE THE WITNESS?
THE COURT: JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY, IS WHERE HE PARKED HIS CAR IMPORTANT?
MS. CLARK: THE LOCATION OF ALL OF THE OFFICERS I THINK IS GOING TO BE IMPORTANT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
PROCEED.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU LOCATE WHERE YOU PARKED YOUR CAR IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A YES. IT WOULD BE THE LEFT OF THE PHOTOGRAPH ON BUNDY OFF OF THE PICTURE. YOU CAN'T SEE IT IN THIS PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPH.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 50.
Q BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US THE LOCATION THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, YOUR HONOR? YOUR HONOR. DETECTIVE. THE COURT'S BEEN THERE.
THE COURT: I'VE BEEN THERE. I CAN TELL YOU.
MS. CLARK: YOU CAN TELL US.
THE WITNESS: THIS IS LOOKING NORTHBOUND BUNDY AND THE -- DIRECTLY IN THE MIDDLE HERE I GUESS WOULD BE DOROTHY FROM LEFT TO RIGHT, AND THIS PHOTOGRAPH APPEARS TO BE TAKEN FROM THE SOUTH SIDE OF DOROTHY.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ON -- AND IS IT ON BUNDY?
A IT'S ON BUNDY, YES.
Q WOULD YOU BE -- WOULD YOU HAVE PARKED YOUR CAR TO THE LEFT OF -- EXCUSE ME -- TO THE RIGHT OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH AS YOU FACE IT?
A YES.
Q NOW, YOU CAN SEE THE CRIME SCENE TAPE IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A YES.
Q DID YOU FIND IT IN THAT MANNER WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE AT 4:25?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU EXAMINED THE CRIME SCENE TAPE AS IT WAS PLACED WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE?
A IF I EXAMINED THE TAPE?
Q YEAH. NOT WITH A MAGNIFYING GLASS. THE PLACEMENT OF THE TAPE WHEN YOU ARRIVED THERE.
A I OBSERVED THE PLACEMENT, YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU MADE ANY DETERMINATION AS TO WHETHER YOU WERE PLEASED WITH THE WAY IT WAS PLACED?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. PLEASED? THAT IS IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I WAS SATISFIED IN MY MIND THAT THE CRIME SCENE WAS INDEED SECURED BY WHAT I SAW, YES.
Q BY MS. CLARK: SO AFTER YOU PARKED YOUR CAR, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A I APPROACHED THE INTERSECTION WALKING THROUGH THE INTERSECTION TO THE VICINITY OF THE BLACK AND WHITE THAT YOU SEE IN THE CENTER OF THE PHOTOGRAPH WHERE I WAS MET BY LIEUTENANT ROGERS, MY OFFICER IN CHARGE OF MY UNIT, AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
Q DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THEM, SIR?
A UH, YES, I DID.
Q AND WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING THAT YOU DID WHEN YOU GOT THERE?
A WELL, AFTER APPROACHING DETECTIVE VANNATTER, UH, I WAS INTRODUCED TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN. DETECTIVE VANNATTER STATED TO ME THAT --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, WHAT HE SAID. HEARSAY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: YOU SAID YOU WERE INTRODUCED TO DETECTIVES PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN?
A YES.
Q YOU HAD NEVER MET THEM BEFORE?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION THEN WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
A YES.
Q AND BASED ON THAT CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH HIM, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A I PROCEEDED WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TO THE -- UH, SOUTHBOUND ON BUNDY TO DOROTHY, WESTBOUND ON DOROTHY TO THE ALLEYWAY BEHIND UH, 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
WE ENTERED THE ALLEYWAY AND APPROACHED THE REAR OF THE LOCATION. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS GOING TO GIVE ME A WALK THROUGH OF THE CRIME SCENE.
Q OKAY.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 38.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A YES. THAT'S THE ALLEYWAY LOOKING NORTH FROM DOROTHY TOWARDS 875 BUNDY, WHICH WOULD BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE TO THE REAR OF THAT LOCATION.
Q AND DO YOU SEE THE CRIME SCENE TAPE IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
A YES.
Q IS THAT THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT WHEN YOU ARRIVED?
A YES.
Q WAS THERE ANYONE GUARDING THAT CRIME SCENE TAPE, THAT PERIMETER BOUNDARY?
A YES. THERE WAS A UNIFORMED OFFICER AT THE ALLEYWAY.
Q WHEN YOU GOT TO THAT CRIME SCENE TAPE WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH THAT OFFICER THAT WAS GUARDING THE PERIMETER?
A NO. I BELIEVE WE DISPLAYED OUR IDENTIFICATION AND WE WENT UNDERNEATH THE TAPE AND PROCEEDED UP THE ALLEY.
Q AND BEFORE YOU DID THAT THOUGH, YOU SHOWED YOUR IDENTIFICATION TO HIM?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
A WE APPROACHED THE REAR OF THE LOCATION, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND I, AND BEGAN TO ENTER THE GARAGE THAT WAS OPEN AT THE REAR OF THAT LOCATION.
AS WE DID SO, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS POINTED OUT A BLACK JEEP VEHICLE THAT WAS PARKED IN THE DRIVEWAY AND MENTIONING SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT THE VEHICLE BELONGED TO ONE OF THE VICTIMS WHO LIVED AT THE LOCATION.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 71.
Q BY MS. CLARK: SIR, DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
A YES. IT APPEARS TO BE THE BLACK JEEP THAT I SPOKE OF.
Q AND THEN YOU INDICATED THERE WAS ANOTHER CAR?
A YES. THERE WAS A FERRARI, WHITE FERRARI PARKED INSIDE THE GARAGE.
Q AND YOU SEE THAT IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A YES.
Q IS THIS THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND THESE VEHICLES WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE AT APPROXIMATELY 4:25?
A YES.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY THIS NEXT PHOTOGRAPH BE MARKED PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S NO. 73?
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I SEE IT? MAY I SEE THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
MS. CLARK: SORRY.
THE COURT: YES.
THE COURT: 74.
(PEO'S 74 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: THIS IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 74, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 74.
MS. CLARK: CAN YOU MAKE IT LIGHTER? LET'S PUT IT ON THE ELMO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU SEE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A YES. THAT'S THE WHITE FERRARI I MENTIONED PARKED IN THE GARAGE AND THAT'S THE REAR ENTRANCE, REAR DOOR OF THE LOCATION TO THE REAR OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY AND IT'S LOOKING IN AN EASTERLY DIRECTION.
Q OKAY.
IS THIS THE PATH THAT YOU -- WELL, DID YOU GO INTO THE CONDOMINIUM THROUGH THE GARAGE, SIR?
A YES. THIS IS THE PATHWAY THAT I ENTERED WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND ENTERED THE REAR (INDICATING).
Q AND AT THE FRONT END OF THE FERRARI, WHAT IS THAT? IS THAT A DOORWAY?
A THAT'S THE DOORWAY THAT LEADS INTO THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q IS THAT THE ONE YOU WALKED THROUGH, SIR?
A YES.
Q I SEE STAIRS NOW THAT WE'RE GETTING A CLOSE-UP VIEW. ARE THERE STAIRS WHEN YOU FIRST WALK IN?
A YES.
Q TELL US WHAT YOU SAW WHEN YOU WENT IN THROUGH THAT DOOR, SIR, WENT UP THE STAIRS.
A I ENTERED UP THE STAIRS, AND TO THE LEFT WAS A BANISTER ON WHICH I OBSERVED A BEN AND JERRY'S ICE CREAM CUP. IT WAS POINTED OUT TO ME BY DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. TO ME, IT APPEARED TO BE MELTED OR MELTING.
I ASKED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IF THAT HAD BEEN OBSERVED EARLIER. HE STATED --
MR. COCHRAN: HEARSAY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: HE GAVE YOU SOME INFORMATION ABOUT THE OBSERVATIONS OF THE FIRST OFFICER ON THE SCENE?
A YES.
Q DID YOU OBSERVE WHAT KIND OF ICE CREAM THAT WAS?
A NO.
Q HAVE YOU SINCE ATTEMPTED TO DETERMINE WHAT KIND OF ICE CREAM THAT WAS?
A YES.
Q DID YOU?
A I BELIEVE I HAVE.
MR. COCHRAN: HEARSAY WITHOUT FURTHER FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED AT THIS POINT.
WHAT'S THE NEXT QUESTION?
MS. CLARK: THAT WAS IT.
THE COURT: "I BELIEVE I HAVE."
ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU ASK -- DID YOU TRY TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THAT OBSERVATION HAD BEEN WRITTEN DOWN OR DOCUMENTED IN ANY WAY?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO IN THAT REGARD, SIR?
A I REQUESTED OF DETECTIVE PHILLIPS THAT HE HAVE THE OFFICER THAT ORIGINALLY OBSERVED THE ICE CREAM TO DOCUMENT WHAT HE HAD OBSERVED IN HIS REPORT.
Q WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A I PROCEEDED UP THE STAIRS BEHIND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS UH, TO THE FIRST LEVEL WHERE WE PROCEEDED UH, EAST THROUGH THE KITCHEN AREA, THROUGH THE DINETTE AREA TO A POINT WHERE UH, I WAS AT THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE.
AS I BEGAN TO GO THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR, I WAS STOPPED BY DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WHO STATED TO ME --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. IT'S NONRESPONSIVE; ALSO HEARSAY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
NEXT QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TELL YOU SOMETHING, SIR?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
BASED ON WHAT HE TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A I STEPPED THROUGH THE DOORWAY BEHIND HIM AND PROCEEDED EAST ALONG THE WALKWAY TO A POINT ABOVE THE TWO BODIES OF THE VICTIMS.
Q NOW, BEFORE YOU DID THAT, SIR, DID YOU WALK THROUGH THE KITCHEN AREA?
A YES.
Q DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING? DID ANYTHING DRAW YOUR ATTENTION IN THE KITCHEN AREA?
A YES. I OBSERVED A KITCHEN KNIFE UH, ON A COUNTER, KITCHEN COUNTER.
Q AND AT SOME POINT, DID YOU CAUSE PHOTOGRAPHS TO BE TAKEN OF THAT?
A YES
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY I DISPLAY THE PHOTOGRAPH, ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 75?
MS. CLARK: IT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO COUNSEL.
THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 75.
(PEO'S 75 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)
Q BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU SEE HERE, SIR?
A YES. THAT APPEARS TO BE THE KNIFE.
Q THAT YOU WERE JUST DESCRIBING TO US?
A YES.
Q AND IS THAT IN THE LOCATION AND CONDITION WHICH YOU FOUND IT?
A YES.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY I DISPLAY PHOTO, MAY IT BE MARKED NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 76?
THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 76.
(PEO'S 76 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)
Q BY MS. CLARK: AGAIN, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
A YES. THAT'S A CLOSE-UP PHOTOGRAPH OF THAT KNIFE.
Q AND IS THAT THE CONDITION -- IS THAT THE CONDITION AND THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER THE KNIFE LOOKED BLOODY TO YOU?
A IT DID NOT.
Q HOW DID IT LOOK?
A IT LOOKED CLEAN.
Q NOW, AS OF THE AREA OF THE KITCHEN, THE PORTION OF THE HOUSE THAT YOU WALKED THROUGH, AT THAT POINT, DID YOU SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF RANSACKING?
A NO.
Q OR DISTURBANCE?
A NONE.
Q STRUGGLE?
A NONE.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD?
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK THAT THE OBJECTION THAT --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION TO SPEAKING OBJECTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, AND I WOULD BE GLAD TO EMBELLISH.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THANK YOU.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD IN THE CONDOMINIUM, SIR, AT THAT POINT?
A NO.
Q OR BLOODY SHOEPRINTS?
A NO.
Q AS YOU WALKED OUT OF THE KITCHEN, DID YOU MAKE ANY OBSERVATION OF THE LIVING ROOM?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT WAS THAT?
A WHAT WAS THAT?
Q YEAH. WHAT WAS THE OBSERVATION YOU MADE OF THE LIVING ROOM?
A THE LIVING ROOM WAS TO THE EAST UH, OF THE ENTRANCE, AND I OBSERVED UH, SEVERAL CANDLES ON THE LIVING ROOM TABLE BURNING OFF TO THE RIGHT. THE LIVING ROOM KIND OF SINKS DOWN OFF TO THE EAST OF THE LOCATION.
Q AND THEN WHERE DID YOU GO?
A PROCEEDED THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR WITH -- BEHIND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q WAS THE FRONT DOOR OPEN OR CLOSED WHEN YOU GOT TO IT?
A IT WAS WIDE OPEN.
Q DID YOU RECEIVE ANY INFORMATION FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AS TO WHAT POSITION THE DOOR WAS FOUND BY THE FIRST OFFICER ON THE SCENE?
MR. COCHRAN: HE CAN ANSWER THAT YES OR NO.
THE COURT: CORRECT.
DID YOU RECEIVE THAT INFORMATION?
THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: NEXT QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, BEFORE YOU ACTUALLY STEPPED OUTSIDE, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A YES.
Q AND BEFORE YOU STEPPED OUTSIDE, DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS POINT ANYTHING OUT TO YOU?
A YES, HE DID.
Q WHAT WAS IT HE POINTED OUT TO YOU BEFORE YOU STEPPED OUTSIDE THE DOOR?
A HE STOPPED ME AS I WAS GOING THROUGH THE DOOR AND SAID, "BE VERY CAREFUL" --
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT, OFFICER.
HEARSAY, NONRESPONSIVE.
THE COURT: NONRESPONSIVE.
MS. CLARK: THAT'S NOT HEARSAY.
THE COURT: NONRESPONSIVE. WHAT HE POINTED OUT, NOT WHAT HE TOLD ME.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: HE POINTED OUT TO ME WHAT APPEARED TO ME TO BE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND DID HE TELL YOU SOMETHING WITH RESPECT TO THOSE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS?
A YES. HE SAID THAT --
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT.
"YES" IS THE ANSWER.
THE COURT: CORRECT.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
MS. CLARK: IT'S NOT GOING TO BE OFFERED FOR THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: THEN IT'S IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL.
THE COURT: SOUNDS LIKE HEARSAY TO ME UNLESS YOU WANT TO EMBELLISH IT AT SIDEBAR.
MR. COCHRAN: NO. NO.
MS. CLARK: LET ME --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: BASED UPON COUNSEL'S REPRESENTATION, I WILL WITHDRAW THE OBJECTION TO THE QUESTION SO WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A SIDEBAR.
MS. CLARK: THAT'S FINE.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS SAY TO YOU, SIR?
A DETECTIVE PHILLIPS STATED TO ME THAT THERE WERE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS ON THE WALKWAY ALONG WITH BLOOD DROPLETS, TO BE VERY CAREFUL WHERE I STEPPED; AND AT THAT POINT, HE POINTED TOWARDS THEM FROM THE -- FROM RIGHT TO LEFT.
Q OKAY.
AND WERE YOU USING YOUR FLASHLIGHTS AT THAT POINT, SIR?
A THERE WAS A PORCH LIGHT ON RIGHT ABOVE THE FRONT ENTRANCE. AT THAT POINT, NO. I HAD MY FLASHLIGHT WITH ME, BUT THERE WAS SUFFICIENT LIGHT AT THE DOORWAY WHERE I DIDN'T NEED ONE.
Q OKAY.
SO WAS THERE ENOUGH LIGHT FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO SEE, TO AVOID THE EVIDENCE?
A YES.
Q WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A I PROCEEDED BEHIND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS EASTBOUND ON THE WALKWAY TO A POINT ON THE STOOP UH, JUST ABOVE THE TWO VICTIMS.
Q NOW, FIRST OF ALL, WHEN YOU WENT -- WHEN YOU WALKED EAST -- DID YOU JUST SAY THAT YOU SAW BLOODY SHOEPRINTS?
A I OBSERVED WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE WHAT APPEARED TO BE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS AND I OBSERVED TWO SEPARATE WHAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD DROPS.
Q NOW, IN WHAT LOCATION WAS THAT WITH RESPECT TO THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FRONT DOOR AND THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS?
A IN REGARDS TO THE BLOOD DROPLETS?
Q RIGHT.
A AS ONE PROCEEDS EAST ALONG THE WALKWAY, THERE ARE I BELIEVE TWO STEPS GOING DOWN UH, JUST EAST OF THE DOORWAY, AND THERE WAS UH, A DROPLET MORE OR LESS IN THE CENTER OF THE WALKWAY JUST EAST OF THOSE TWO STEPS, AND AS ONE WOULD PROCEED EAST, THERE WAS AN ADDITIONAL DROPLET THAT APPEARED ON THE WALKWAY JUST NORTH OF THE -- NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE RESIDENCE.
UNDERSTAND?
Q I THINK SO.
LET'S --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, CAN YOU CUT THE FEED FOR THIS PHOTO? THIS IS EXHIBIT 35.
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
THAT'S ALL RIGHT, JONATHAN.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
YOU INDICATED YOU SAW THEN -- WERE THESE TWO BLOOD DROPLETS SEPARATE, SIR?
A YES.
Q AND YOU SAW A BLOODY SHOEPRINT WHERE IN RELATIONSHIP TO --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WHERE IN RELATION TO THOSE TWO BLOOD DROPS DID YOU SEE THE BLOODY SHOEPRINT YOU'VE INDICATED?
A I SAW WHAT APPEARED TO BE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS MOVING WESTERLY. THE BLOOD DROPLETS WERE TO THE UH, SOUTH OVER TOWARDS THE BUILDING, THE SHOEPRINTS.
Q AND THEN DID YOU -- DID YOU WALK TO ONE SIDE OF THAT EVIDENCE, SIR?
MR. COCHRAN: LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR. HE CAN TELL US WHERE HE WALKED. THAT'S LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.
THE COURT: MILDLY LEADING.
HOW DID YOU WALK?
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
WHERE DID YOU WALK?
A I WALKED TO THE RIGHT AS YOU'RE GOING EAST OR TO THE SOUTH SIDE OF THOSE SHOEPRINTS.
Q AND DID YOU STOP AT SOME POINT?
A YES. I STOPPED AT A POINT ON THE LANDING ABOVE THE TWO VICTIMS.
Q NOW, WAS THAT YOUR FIRST VIEW OF THE CRIME SCENE, SIR?
A YES.
Q WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WITH YOU?
A YES.
Q DID HE POINT OUT ANYTHING WITH RESPECT TO ONE OF THE VICTIMS?
A YES. HE -- YES, HE DID.
Q NOW, DID YOU RECEIVE SOME INFORMATION CONCERNING THE IDENTITY OF ONE OF THE VICTIMS?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT WAS THAT INFORMATION?
A THAT THE VICTIM WAS BELIEVED TO BE NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, THE FORMER WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON.
MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, JONATHAN --
CAN YOU PLEASE CUT THE FEED, YOUR HONOR?
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO --
MS. CLARK: 35.
Q BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU'RE SEEING HERE, SIR?
A YES.
Q AND TELL US HOW.
A THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING DOWN FROM MY APPROXIMATE POSITION THAT I TESTIFIED TO UH, IN A NORTHEASTERLY DIRECTION TOWARDS THE VICTIM SIMPSON.
Q OKAY.
AND IS THIS THE VIEW THAT YOU HAD FROM THE -- APPROXIMATELY FROM THE TOP OF THE LANDING WHERE YOU STOOD WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, IS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU SAW HER, MISS NICOLE BROWN, WHEN YOU APPEARED AT THE SCENE?
A YES.
Q AND FROM THAT POSITION, WERE YOU ALSO ABLE TO SEE THE BODY OF RON GOLDMAN?
A YES.
Q WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY EVIDENCE FROM THAT POSITION, SIR?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE?
A OBSERVED A WHITE ENVELOPE IN THE DIRT BETWEEN UH, THE TWO VICTIMS. I OBSERVED WHAT APPEARED TO BE A DARK BROWN OR BLACK LEATHER-APPEARING GLOVE UH, AND A -- WHAT WOULD BE A BLUE KNIT CAP IN THE DIRT AREA NEAR THE FEET OF UH, VICTIM GOLDMAN.
Q NOW, THE LIGHTING IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA WHERE YOU SAW THAT EVIDENCE OF THE GLOVE AND THE CAP, CAN YOU DESCRIBE IT FOR US?
A THERE WAS NO DIRECT LIGHTING ON THAT PARTICULAR AREA. UH, THERE WAS BASICALLY INDIRECT LIGHTING.
Q WAS IT DARK IN THAT AREA?
A YES.
Q WITHOUT THE AID OF YOUR -- WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS.
WERE YOU USING YOUR FLASHLIGHT TO SEE THE GLOVE AND THE CAP, SIR?
A YES.
Q WITHOUT THE AID OF YOUR FLASHLIGHT, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THAT EVIDENCE?
A I COULD PROBABLY MAKE OUT A FORM, BUT I PERHAPS COULDN'T IDENTIFY WHAT IT WAS.
Q WAS THERE A PLANT NEAR THAT EVIDENCE, SIR?
A YES.
Q AND WHERE WAS IT IN RELATIONSHIP TO THAT PLANT, THE EVIDENCE?
A THE GLOVE AND THE KNIT CAP WERE BENEATH THE LEAVES OF THE PLANT.
Q OKAY.
WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A I PROCEEDED WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WEST ON THE WALKWAY OBSERVING OTHER WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS MOVING IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION BACK WEST TOWARDS THE FRONT DOOR TO A POINT JUST BEFORE THE FRONT DOOR WHERE IT APPEARED TO ME THAT THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS DID A BIT OF A TURN-AROUND BACK EAST.
I CONTINUED WALKING WESTERLY ON THE WALKWAY OBSERVING THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS THROUGH A SMALL GATE THAT LED TO A UH, STAIRWELL. THE UH, SHOEPRINTS LED DOWN THE STAIRWELL. ALONG THE WAY, I OBSERVED TWO OTHER WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE BLOOD DROPLETS TO THE LEFT OFF OR TO THE SOUTH OF THOSE UH, SHOEPRINTS.
I PROCEEDED -- CONTINUED TO PROCEED WEST OR CORRECTION -- YES, WEST ON THE WALKWAY TOWARD A GATE WHERE I OBSERVED WHAT APPEARED TO ME TO BE ADDITIONAL BLOOD, PROCEEDED THROUGH THAT GATE THAT LED OUT INTO THE CARPORT AREA OF THE REAR ALLEY OF THE RESIDENCE WHERE I OBSERVED AN ADDITIONAL WHAT APPEARED TO BE A BLOOD DROPLET ON THE UH, DRIVEWAY JUST EAST OF THE ALLEY.
AND THAT WOULD BE JUST NORTH OF THE BLACK JEEP THAT I MENTIONED EARLIER.
Q NOW, YOU SAID THAT YOU SAW THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS AT ONE POINT BEFORE YOU GET TO THE FRONT DOOR AS THEY PROCEEDED TOWARDS THE REAR ALLEY DO WHAT APPEARED ALMOST TO BE A TURN-AROUND. DID IT TURN COMPLETELY TO THE EAST?
A I DON'T RECALL IT BEING A COMPLETE TURN AROUND. IT APPEARED TO BE A PARTIAL.
Q AND WAS IT IN FRONT OF THE FRONT DOOR, SIR?
A NO. I BELIEVE IT WAS EAST OF THE FRONT DOOR.
Q SO IT WAS AT SOME POINT BEFORE YOU GET TO THE FRONT DOOR IF YOU'RE PROCEEDING FROM THE BODIES TO THE REAR ALLEY?
A THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION, YES.
Q AND WERE THERE ANY BLOODY SHOEPRINTS THAT WERE ANGLED IN TOWARDS THE FRONT DOOR?
A NO.
Q AT THE AREA OF THE FRONT DOOR, DID YOU SEE ANY BLOODY SHOEPRINTS AT ALL?
A THE ONLY SHOEPRINTS I SAW, THEY WALKED -- APPEARED TO WALK RIGHT BY THE DOOR GOING WESTERLY ON THE WALKWAY.
Q GOING RIGHT?
A RIGHT BY THE FRONT DOOR, YES.
Q AND TOWARDS THE REAR GATE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN YOU GOT TO THE REAR GATE, WAS IT OPEN OR CLOSED, SIR?
A IT WAS UH, PARTIALLY OPEN, I'D SAY PERHAPS UH, HALF-WAY OR SO.
Q CAN YOU RECALL AT THIS POINT WHETHER THE -- AT WHAT POINT THE SHOEPRINTS FADED OUT?
A TO ME, THEY APPEARED TO FADE OUT AS THEY REACHED THE BOTTOM STEPS OF THE UH, STAIRWELL THAT I MENTIONED, WHICH IS APPROXIMATELY MIDWAY BETWEEN THE FRONT AND REAR GATE.
Q WHEN YOU GOT TO THE REAR GATE, DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS POINT ANYTHING OUT TO YOU?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT WAS THAT?
A POINTED OUT WHAT APPEARED TO BE A BLOOD TRANSFER OR SMEAR ON THE UPPER RUNG OF THE GATE AND WHAT APPEARED TO BE TWO DROPLETS OF BLOOD ON THE LOWER RUNG, LOWER INSIDE RUNG OF THE BOTTOM OF THE REAR GATE.
Q AND YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE THOSE, WERE YOU, SIR?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHEN YOU GOT OUT TO THE REAR DRIVEWAY, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU SAW THE BLOOD DROPLETS AND THE CHANGE IN THE REAR DRIVEWAY?
A I DON'T BELIEVE I INDICATED CHANGE. I DID OBSERVE COINS AT THAT LOCATION; HOWEVER, OUT OF THE VICINITY OF WHAT APPEARED TO BE A BLOOD DROPLET.
Q AND WHO POINTED THAT OUT TO YOU OR DID YOU SEE THAT ON YOUR OWN?
A DETECTIVE PHILLIPS POINTED IT OUT.
Q NOW, WHY WAS IT THAT YOU WERE GOING WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS? WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST WALK BY YOURSELF?
A THERE WAS EVIDENCE THROUGHOUT AND I CERTAINLY DIDN'T WANT TO DESTROY EVIDENCE OR WALK IN THE WRONG PLACE. THESE THINGS NEEDED TO BE POINTED OUT TO ME SO THAT I WOULD KNOW WHERE TO STEP AS HE GUIDED ME ON A WALK THROUGH.
Q IS THAT COMMON PROCEDURE, SIR?
A YES, IT IS.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A BOX THAT APPEARS TO BE SEALED AT THIS TIME. FOR THE RECORD, I'M GOING TO BREAK THE SEAL FOR THE PURPOSE OF HAVING DETECTIVE LANGE IDENTIFY SOME EVIDENCE FOR US.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU WANT SCISSORS? DO YOU WANT A KNIFE OR SCISSORS?
MS. CLARK: KNIFE.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: COULD WE HAVE A CONFERENCE?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK THERE'S A -- MAY I SAY SOMETHING? THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT -- ARE WE LEAVING AT 3:00 O'CLOCK TODAY? ARE WE QUITTING AT 3:00?
THE COURT: AS FAR AS THE JURY IS CONCERNED, YES.
MR. COCHRAN: THERE'S PROBABLY A NEED TO DISCUSS SOMETHING WITH THE COURT REGARDING THIS EVIDENCE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE I THINK, YOUR HONOR.
MS. CLARK: BEFORE I DO THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THE EVIDENCE AND SHOW IT TO THE WITNESS, AND THEN WE CAN HAVE A DISCUSSION AT SIDEBAR.
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK THERE MAY BE A NEED TO TALK TO YOU BEFORE THAT IS DONE.
THE COURT: LET ME SEE COUNSEL OVER AT SIDEBAR.
MS. CLARK: WHY IS COUNSEL TRYING TO GET US TO STOP INTRODUCING THE EVIDENCE?
THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT. COME ON OVER HERE WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)
THE COURT: WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?
MR. COCHRAN: WE MAY NEED TO BREAK THE ONE-LAWYER RULE. I ONLY KNOW CERTAIN THINGS. I HAVEN'T BEEN FOLLOWING THE WHOLE DNA THING.
SO THE REASON WHY -- WE'RE NOT TRYING TO CONSTANTLY MAKE THOSE SPEAKING OBJECTIONS. WE ARE JUST TRYING TO DO WHAT YOU APPARENTLY AGREED TO.
AND I WOULD LIKE FOR THE LAWYERS WHO ARE GOING TO BE SHIPPING THIS TO ALBANY ADDRESS THIS BECAUSE APPARENTLY THEY'VE WORKED OUT AN AGREEMENT THAT I'M NOT SURE THESE LAWYERS KNOW.
MR. DARDEN: THE AGREEMENT AS WE UNDERSTAND IT, WE ARE GOING TO SHOW THE WITNESS TODAY THE -- MARK THE GLOVE AND THE RING. IS THAT RIGHT?
MS. CLARK: WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO --
MR. SCHECK: PUT IT ALL BACK IN THE PACKAGE, YOU CAN PHOTOGRAPH IT AND SEND IT BACK.
MR. DARDEN: MR. HODGMAN IS HERE. WE'RE NOT BREAKING THE AGREEMENT.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY SAID OVER THERE. THEY SAID OVER THERE, "WE ARE GOING TO PUT IN THIS EVIDENCE." MARCIA TOLD ME --
THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. WAIT MEANS EVERYBODY STOP.
YES, IT'S GOING INTO EVIDENCE, AND THEN I'M GOING TO SIGN AN ORDER ORDERING THAT PHOTOGRAPHS BE PUT IN THERE INSTEAD AND THEY BE ALLOWED TO BE TESTED OVER THE WEEKEND AND RETURNED TO THE COURT. THAT'S WHAT THE DEAL IS.
MS. CLARK: RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: WHY ARE WE UP HERE?
THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT. GUYS, WHEN I SAY WAIT, PLEASE.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A KNIFE.
THE COURT: GIVE ME MY KEYS BACK.
MR. DARDEN: NOT YET.
THE COURT: GIVE ME MY KEYS.
ALL RIGHT.
JUROR NO. 98 HAS HAD A DEATH IN HER FAMILY. I THINK HER SISTER DIED.
AND SO WHEN WE CONCLUDE, I WANT TO CALL HER UP BECAUSE I GAVE HER EXTENDED PHONE PRIVILEGES LAST NIGHT SO SHE -- I THINK SHE MAY HAVE TO GO BACK TO MISSISSIPPI OR MISSOURI, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO I NEED TO HEAR FROM HER WHAT HER ARRANGEMENTS ARE, BUT WE'LL DO THAT AFTER WE CONCLUDE THIS BUSINESS.
ALL RIGHT.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
MISS CLARK, DO YOU HAVE SOME ITEMS YOU WANT TO MARK FOR IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES?
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR, THANK YOU.
FOR THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR, I'VE REMOVED THIS MANILA -- DURING THE HUDDLE, I REMOVED THE ENVELOPE, THAT IS A MANILA ENVELOPE FROM A SEALED PLASTIC BAG WHICH CONTAINS SLIDES, WITHIN THE CARDBOARD ITEMS ARE SLIDES, AND THIS BROWN BAG WHICH IS CURRENTLY SEALED. AND I'M NOT GOING TO REMOVE THE ITEM AT THIS TIME.
WELL, I NEED PLASTIC GLOVES.
THE COURT: MRS. ROBERTSON AS USUAL IS PREPARED.
MS. CLARK: WE HAVE THEM?
THE COURT: LET ME HAVE DEIRDRA GET SOME GLOVES.
MS. CLARK: I AM SORRY, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YEAH. WE'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS BEFORE. AND WE NOW HAVE BAGS AS WELL.
DO YOU WANT TO MARK THAT LARGER MANILA ENVELOPE AND ITS CONTENTS?
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE LARGER MANILA ENVELOPE CONTAINS A BROWN BAG WHICH CONTAINS A BLUE CAP. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS PLACE THE CAP INTO A PLASTIC BAG AND THE GLOVE INTO A PLASTIC BAG IF IT PLEASES THE COURT.
THE COURT: MRS. ROBERTSON, DO WE HAVE SOME CLEAR PLASTIC BAGS?
THE CLERK: YES, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DETECTIVE LANGE, I'M SHOWING YOU NOW --
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AN ITEM THAT I ASK BE MARKED NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 74.
THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 77.
MS. CLARK: YES. REMOVING IT FROM THE BROWN BAG.
(PEO'S 77 FOR ID = BROWN GLOVE)
Q BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING IT TO YOU NOW.
WITHOUT TOUCHING IT, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE ITEM THAT I'VE JUST SHOWN TO YOU MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 77?
A THAT APPEARS TO BE THE GLOVE THAT I OBSERVED AT THE FOOT OF MR. GOLDMAN, YES.
MS. CLARK: I AM GOING TO ASK THAT THE BAG IN WHICH IT CAME BE PLACED IN A SEPARATE PLASTIC CONTAINER, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MS. CLARK: AND THINK IT SHOULD BE MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 77-A.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
77-A.
(PEO'S 77-A FOR ID = BROWN PAPER BAG)
THE COURT: PLASTIC BAG CONTAINING THE BROWN PAPER BAG.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND SHOWING YOU NOW THE CONTENTS OF THIS BROWN PAPER BAG, SIR.
I'M GOING TO REMOVE THEM, PLACE IT ON BACK OF THE BAG AND ASK YOU --
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, I THINK MR. DOUGLAS NEEDS TO TALK TO YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: SIR, DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN TO YOU THERE?
A YES. THAT ALSO APPEARS TO BE THE BLUE KNIT STOCKING CAP I OBSERVED NEAR THE GLOVE.
Q AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: I WOULD ASK THAT THIS BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 78.
THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 78.
(PEO'S 78 FOR ID = BLUE KNIT CAP)
MS. CLARK: IN A SEPARATE BAG THE BROWN BAG THAT WE FOUND IT IN.
THE COURT: 78-A WILL BE THE BROWN PAPER BAG.
(PEO'S 78-A FOR ID = BROWN PAPER BAG)
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YOU ARE WELCOME.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: I CAN MOVE INTO ANOTHER AREA OR WHAT'S THE COURT'S PLEASURE?
THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE -- ANY OF THE OTHER ITEMS THAT WE HAVE HERE, ARE YOU GOING TO SHOW ANY OF THOSE THINGS TO DETECTIVE LANGE AT THIS TIME?
MS. CLARK: NOT RIGHT AWAY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THEN WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS AT THIS POINT. BUT HOLD ON JUST A SECOND.
LET ME SEE COUNSEL WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)
MR. SCHECK: I HAVE ONE MATTER BEFORE THAT WE NEED TO BRING TO YOUR ATTENTION. THAT IS, I DID NOT KNOW YOU WERE GOING TO PUT IT IN A PLASTIC BAG. YOU SHOULD NOT PUT THIS IN A PLASTIC BAG.
YOUR OWN REGULATIONS SAY YOU SHOULD NEVER PUT EVIDENCE WITH BLOOD IN A SEALED PLASTIC BAG. IT DEGRADES THE DNA.
FRANKLY, MISS CLARK, THAT IS ONE OF THE MAJOR PROBLEMS WITH THE EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, THAT THAT WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE. SO I WOULD OBJECT ON THE GROUNDS THAT THAT IS GOING TO RUIN THE EVIDENCE.
I WOULD REQUEST THAT THE ITEMS BE TAKEN OUT OF THE PLASTIC BAGS, BE PUT BACK IN THE BAGS WITH THE ORIGINAL PACKAGING. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU WANT TO DO THAT IN FRONT OF THE JURY OR NOT BECAUSE I KNOW THERE'S OTHER CONSIDERATIONS WITH THE JUROR, BUT I WOULD MAKE THAT REQUEST IN TERMS OF PRESERVING THE CHAIN AND THE INTEGRITY OF THE EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: THANK YOU, MR. SCHECK. I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT MYSELF.
WHY DON'T YOU TALK TO MR. CLARK WHO IS HERE AND SEE IF YOU AGREE WITH THAT. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO GET THE JURY OUT OF HERE.
LET ME HAVE NO. 98 COME OVER AND TALK TO HER ABOUT HER PERSONAL PROBLEM.
MS. CLARK: MR. SCHECK, I HAVE NO OBJECTION --
MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS SOMETHING MARCIA SHOULD KNOW ALSO. YOU KNOW, THIS IS ONE COUNSEL TO ANOTHER.
THOSE GLOVES, I'M NOT SURE -- SHE THREW THE GLOVES DOWN ON HER SIDE OF THE TABLE. SHE WILL BE STILL WORKING OVER THERE FOR THE REST OF THE CASE.
MS. CLARK: I TURNED THEM INSIDE OUT.
THE COURT: WELL --
MR. COCHRAN: MARCIA, IT'S --
THE COURT: BE CAUTIOUS WITH THAT STUFF.
I AM GOING TO ASK 98 TO STEP OVER HERE FOR A MOMENT.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: JUROR 98, CAN I HAVE YOU STEP OVER HERE FOR JUST A SECOND, PLEASE?
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)
(JUROR 98 APPROACHES THE BENCH.)
THE COURT: HELLO, NO. 98.
FIRST OF ALL, I ADVISED COUNSEL OF THE LOSS OF YOUR FAMILY AND I WANT TO EXPRESS TO YOU OUR SADNESS IN HEARING THAT. I KNOW IT'S A GREAT BURDEN TO YOU GIVEN THE SITUATION THAT YOU'RE IN.
JUROR NO. 98: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: THE BAILIFF TOLD ME YOU HAD TO MAKE SOME PHONE CALLS AND BECAUSE OF YOUR STANDING IN THE FAMILY, THAT IT IS SOME OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE THE ARRANGEMENTS FOR YOUR FAMILY; IS THAT CORRECT?
JUROR NO. 98: I WOULD LIKE TO BE ON HAND ANYWAY AND TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS. I STILL NEED TO MAKE SOME MORE PHONE CALLS.
THE COURT: OKAY.
DO YOU KNOW WHEN THE FUNERAL IS GOING TO BE, WHEN IT'S SCHEDULED?
JUROR NO. 98: MORE THAN LIKELY IN ST. LOUIS. PROBABLY HAVE TWO LOCATIONS, BUT IF POSSIBLE, I'LL SEE ABOUT THE ONE IN ST. LOUIS.
THE COURT: AND WHEN DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE?
JUROR NO. 98: I ANTICIPATE AT LEAST SOMEWHERE ABOUT NEXT WEEK, MAYBE THE WEEKEND.
THE COURT: OKAY.
COUNSEL, WHAT I'M GOING TO DO THEN, I'M GOING TO ASK 98 TO ADVISE THE BAILIFF AS SOON AS WE KNOW WHAT THE ARRANGEMENTS ARE, AND IF REASONABLY POSSIBLE, WE'LL TAKE A RECESS FOR THAT DAY.
MR. COCHRAN: SURE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OF COURSE, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT IS GOING TO HAVE TO GO WITH YOU.
JUROR NO. 98: I HAVE NO PROBLEM.
THE COURT: BUT I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND WE'LL DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO TRY TO ACCOMMODATE YOU IN THIS.
JUROR NO. 98: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: OKAY.
ALL RIGHT.
JUROR NO. 98: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ADVISE THE SHERIFF'S WHAT YOUR ARRANGEMENTS ARE. AND I'M GOING TO TELL --
COUNSEL, I WOULD LIKE YOUR PERMISSION FOR THE BAILIFF TO CALL ME AND GIVE ME THE OPTION TO MAKE WHATEVER ORDERS ARE APPROPRIATE --
MR. COCHRAN: SO STIPULATED.
THE COURT: -- IN YOUR ABSENCE.
MS. CLARK: ABSOLUTELY.
MR. COCHRAN: JUST LET US KNOW.
JUROR NO. 98: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
(JUROR NO. 98 RETURNED TO
THE JURY BOX.)
THE COURT: OKAY.
MR. BAILEY: WE HAVE AN AFFIDAVIT FROM ROSA LOPEZ THAT I WOULD LIKE TO PRESENT TO YOU TODAY. THE PRESS WENT OUT AND FOUND HER AT HER SISTER'S HOME AND SHE'S THREATENING TO LEAVE AGAIN.
MR. DARDEN: THAT RAISES AN INTERESTING ISSUE. AM I ALLOWED TO SERVE MISS LOPEZ?
THE COURT: I'M SURE YOU ARE. THERE'S NO PROVISION FOR IMMUNITY FROM SERVICE OF A SUBPOENA.
MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: IN ANY EVENT, LET'S GET RID OF THE JURY. WE HAVE A FEW MORE DNA ISSUES.
MR. COCHRAN: CAN I BE EXCUSED? JUDGE BASCUE WANTS TO SEE MYSELF AND MR. SHAPIRO. CAN WE GO UPSTAIRS? HE IS WAITING FOR US.
JUDGE, ON THE SCHEDULE, YOU SAID YOU WOULD LET US KNOW. WHEN DO YOU THINK YOU'LL KNOW?
THE COURT: I DON'T KNOW. SHE'S ASKED FOR SOME SPECIAL PHONE PRIVILEGES TO CALL BACK --
MR. COCHRAN: YOU KNOW HOW TO REACH ME IF SOMETHING COMES UP.
THE COURT: NO. I'VE GOT THE PROSECUTION'S CARD AND I KNOW HOW TO GET IN TOUCH WITH THESE PEOPLE.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANKS, JUDGE. HAVE A GOOD HOLIDAY.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO STAND IN RECESS FOR THE WEEKEND AT THIS TIME.
PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONG YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS ON THE MATTER UNTIL IT HAS BEEN FINALLY SUBMITTED TO YOU, DO NOT ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU REGARDING THE CASE.
ALL RIGHT.
SEE YOU BACK HERE -- I'M SURE THE BAILIFF HAS TOLD YOU AND IF YOU RECOLLECT, MONDAY IS A COURT HOLIDAY, PRESIDENTS' DAY. AND WE'LL SEE YOU BACK HERE OH TUESDAY, 9:00 O'CLOCK.
ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
DETECTIVE LANGE, YOU ARE EXCUSED UNTIL TUESDAY AT 9:00. THANK YOU, SIR.
AND, DEPUTY JACKS, I DO HAVE SOME MATTERS I NEED TO TALK TO THE LAWYERS ABOUT. SO WE NEED TO EXCUSE THE JURY AND THEN RECONVENE.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. BE SEATED.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE JUST PUT ON THE RECORD, WE IDENTIFIED THE LAST PHOTOGRAPH SHOWN AS PEOPLE'S 35. IT WAS ACTUALLY PEOPLE'S 55, IF I COULD CORRECT THAT ON THE RECORD.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MRS. ROBERTSON.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT THE JURY HAS WITHDRAWN FROM THE COURTROOM AND WE ARE IN RECESS AS FAR AS THE JURY IS CONCERNED FOR THE WEEK.
MR. HODGMAN, MR. BLASIER, IS THERE ANYTHING WE CAN -- WE NEED TO PUT ON THE RECORD?
AND, MISS CLARK, YOU ARE GOING TO REPACKAGE THOSE ITEMS THAT YOU JUST INTRODUCED OR THAT YOU JUST IDENTIFIED?
MS. CLARK: YES. THERE IS NO ISSUE WITH RESPECT TO THAT. I JUST WANTED TO INDICATE WHICH GOES TO WHAT.
THE BROWN BAG I'M HOLDING HERE --
MR. BLAISER: YOUR HONOR, ANYTHING WE NEED TO DO CAN BE DONE IN CHAMBERS.
MS. CLARK: I AM NOT TOUCHING ANYTHING. IDENTIFYING. IDENTIFYING. RELAX, MR. SCHECK.
THE COURT: OKAY.
ALL RIGHT.
MS. CLARK: PEOPLE GET EXCITED.
MR. DARDEN: WHO WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE REPLACE IT, YOUR HONOR?
MS. CLARK: THE BAG IS IDENTIFIED NUMBER 38 ON IT. I'M GOING TO LEAVE IT FOR MR. CLARK TO DO. IT'S IDENTIFIED WITH NUMBER 38, IS FOR THE CAP.
MR. DARDEN: THAT'S 78-A.
THE COURT: YOU MEAN 78?
MS. CLARK: RIGHT. 78, WHICH IS THE CAP, IS -- GOES BACK TO 78-A AND INTO WHATEVER CONTAINER IT LIKES. THE GLOVE WAS INITIALLY IN -- THE GLOVE THAT IS 77 WAS INITIALLY IN THE BAG CONTAINED IN 77-A.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MS. CLARK: WHICH HAS THE NUMBER 37 ON IT.
THE COURT: THE COURT NOTES FOR THE RECORD THAT THE AUTHORITY DEALING WITH BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE INDICATE THAT THE PLACING IN PLASTIC CONTAINERS IS NOT THE APPROPRIATE PACKAGING MATERIAL FOR BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE.
MS. CLARK: LET THE RECORD REFLECT ALSO THOUGH THAT NONE OF THESE BAGS HAVE BEEN SEALED.
THE COURT: NOTED.
MS. CLARK: AND I'M HANDING IT ALL OVER TO MR. CLARK.
MR. SCHECK: MAY I MAKE THE REQUEST THAT --
THE COURT: MR. SCHECK?
MR. SCHECK: -- THE GLOVES, THEY BE PLACED BACK IN THE ORIGINAL PACKAGING AND THAT THE PLASTIC BAGS THAT CONTAINED EACH ITEM ALSO BE --
MR. BAILEY: PRESERVED?
THE COURT: INCLUDED IN THE PACKAGING? CERTAINLY.
MR. CLARK: I HOPE I DON'T HAVE TO BE PACKAGED, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: I'M HANDING MR. CLARK A PAIR OF RUBBER GLOVES, YOUR HONOR.
MS. CLARK: I HAVE HERE ALSO THE PLASTIC BAG OUT OF WHICH WE TOOK THE BAG CONTAINING THE SKI CAP. ITEM NUMBER 37 STILL CONTAINS THE SLIDES OF THE HAIR AND FIBER THAT WERE EXAMINED BY THE DEFENSE AND THE PROSECUTION.
I'M GOING TO ASK LEAVE OF THE COURT TO PLACE THAT BACK IN THE MANILA ENVELOPE THAT HAS THE NUMBER 38 ON IT AND REPLACE THIS ITEM, THIS MANILA ENVELOPE BACK INTO THE BOX FROM WHICH IT WAS REMOVED.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. BAILEY: YOUR HONOR --
MR. SCHECK: I WOULD REQUEST THAT WE RESEAL THAT AND INITIAL IT AND DATE IT. YES. AND IF IT MIGHT BE OKAY, COULD WE JUST SHOW IT TO THE DEFENDANT?
THE COURT: SURE.
MR. SCHECK: SHOW IT TO THE DEFENDANT BEFORE YOU RESEAL IT?
MS. CLARK: SURE.
MR. SCHECK: I WOULD ASK THAT WHEN MR. CLARK REPACKAGES THE ITEMS, THAT HE CHANGES GLOVES EACH TIME AND WHEN HE HANDLES EACH ITEM.
THE COURT: NO OBJECTION.
ALL RIGHT.
NOW, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE WE NEED TO PUT ON THE RECORD?
AND, MR. BLASIER, MR. SCHECK, YOU ARE GOING TO SUBMIT TO THE COURT A REMOVAL ORDER?
MR. BAILEY: I HAVE IT RIGHT HERE.
MR. DARDEN: WHO IS GOING TO RESEAL THE BOX BY THE WAY?
THE COURT: THE BOX WILL BE RETURNED TO THE CLERK AFTER THE ITEMS HAVE BEEN EXHIBITED TO THE DEFENDANT AND THEN THE CLERK WILL RESEAL THE BOX.
MR. DARDEN: WE WOULD ASK ONE OF US REMAIN TO WATCH AS MR. SIMPSON --
THE COURT: I WILL ORDER ALL OF YOU STAY HERE UNTIL IT IS DONE.
MS. CLARK: NOT US, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL OF YOU.
MR. DARDEN: YOU LET MR. SHAPIRO AND MR. COCHRAN LEAVE.
THE COURT: THEY WERE ORDERED TO APPEAR IN THE SUPERVISING JUDGE'S COURTROOM.
I'M GOING TO ORDER THAT MR. CLARK, MR. BLASIER, MR. SCHECK REMAIN FOR THE DNA OR BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE MATERIALS.
ANYTHING ELSE WE NEED TO TAKE UP ON THE RECORD, MR. HODGMAN?
MR. DARDEN, MISS CLARK, YOU ARE EXCUSED. HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.
MR. BAILEY: I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE UP THE 1335 MATTER. THE AFFIDAVIT IS COMING IN AS WE SPEAK.
THE COURT: LET ME FINISH WITH THE DNA PROBLEMS FIRST.
MR. BAILEY: RIGHT.
THE COURT: MR. HODGMAN.
MR. HODGMAN: WELL, WE HAVE ONE MISCELLANEOUS MATTER, YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO BRING TO THE COURT'S ATTENTION, AND I'LL PROVIDE COUNSEL WITH SOME COPIES. AND IF I MAY, I'LL APPROACH THE CLERK WITH SOME COPIES OF AN ITEM AS WELL.
THE COURT: MADAM REPORTER, HOW ARE YOU DOING?
THE COURT REPORTER: OKAY.
MR. HODGMAN: YOUR HONOR, I'VE HANDED TO THE COURT A DOCUMENT WHICH BEARS THE HEADING AMONGST OTHER THINGS, "SUBPOENA FOR APPEARANCE OF WITNESS," AND IT APPEARS TO BE ADDRESSED TO ONE -- A JILL SHIVELY, AND IN THE BOX MARKED SPECIAL INSTRUCTION TO WITNESS, ON-CALL STATUS, "KATO INVESTIGATION."
I'M HERE -- THIS PARTICULAR ITEM WAS FAXED TO OUR OFFICE, AND I WANT TO TELL THIS COURT AND I WANT TO TELL ALL WHO MAY BE LISTENING THAT THIS SUBPOENA IS NOT AN OFFICIALLY AUTHORIZED SUBPOENA FROM OUR OFFICE. IT WAS NOT SENT BY OUR OFFICE. THERE IS NO SUCH KATO INVESTIGATION. THIS WAS NEVER SENT BY OUR OFFICE TO MISS SHIVELY.
WE ARE CONDUCTING AN INVESTIGATION TO FIND OUT HOW IN THE WORLD SOMEONE COULD GET HOLD OF A SUBPOENA SUCH AS THIS AND APPEAR TO HAVE DOCTORED IT IN ORDER TO CREATE THE DOCUMENT BEFORE YOU. THIS WAS -- HAS BEEN BROUGHT OUT IN THE MEDIA I AM LED TO BELIEVE, AND I WANT THIS COURT TO BE AWARE THAT THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL DOCUMENT OF ANY SORT. IT WAS NOT ISSUED BY THIS OFFICE, AND I'M LETTING THE DEFENSE KNOW THAT AS WELL.
THE COURT: INTERESTINGLY, THE FACSIMILE DATE ON IT AND LOCATION.
MR. BAILEY: ONE FROM ORANGE COUNTY AND TWO FROM WEST L.A.
MR. HODGMAN: SO TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT IS OF CONCERN TO ANYONE, IT NEED NO LONGER BE A CONCERN.
WE DO HAVE THE MATTERS REGARDING THE TRANSPORTATION. WE STILL HAVE THE MATTERS REGARDING THE MOVEMENT OF CERTAIN PROPERTY ITEMS, AND IF WE COULD APPROACH, WE WOULD BE HAPPY TO ADDRESS THAT.
THE COURT: SURE.
MR. HODGMAN: ONE ADDITIONAL MATTER I NEED TO TAKE UP.
THE COURT: HAVE WE RESOLVED MOST OF THOSE ITEMS?
MR. HODGMAN: I BELIEVE SO. WE CAN -- WE WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH WITH THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH THAT AND HANDLING THAT PARTICULAR ASPECT OF THE CASE. BUT I THINK WE CAN ASSURE THE COURT THAT SOMETHING I DESCRIBED AS BEING AKIN TO THE LOGISTICS INVOLVED BY THE NORMANDIE INVASION, APPARENTLY WE ARE LANDING -- ALL BOATS ARE LANDING AND IT APPEARS TO BE WORKING.
THE COURT: WE'LL GIVE IT A CODE NAME, OPERATION OVERLOAD.
MR. HODGMAN: VERY WELL.
THERE IS A MATTER THAT I NEED TO ADDRESS WITH THE COURT AND COUNSEL IN CHAMBERS WITH THE REPORTER.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE WE NEED TO DO? I GUESS WE CAN DO THAT MATTER AS WELL, MR. BAILEY.
MR. BAILEY: IN CHAMBERS?
THE COURT: ANYTHING ELSE?
MR. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, WITH REGARD TO THE CHANGE OF EVIDENCE TO THE ORIGINAL CONTAINERS, INVESTIGATOR MIKE STEVENS HAS BEEN ASKED BY ME TO PERFORM THAT TASK.
THE COURT: I WILL ALLOW COUNSEL TO OBSERVE THAT WHILE WE DO THAT, ALTHOUGH MY RECOLLECTION IS, WE ARE ALSO GOING TO EXHIBIT THESE ITEMS FIRST TO THE DEFENDANT BEFORE WE REPACKAGE THEM.
VERY GOOD. THEN WE'LL STAND IN RECESS, ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN IN OPEN COURT. THEN, COUNSEL, I'M GOING TO GIVE THE COURT REPORTER A 10-MINUTE RECESS.
WHEN YOU'RE DONE WITH THIS, LET ME KNOW, AND WE'LL TAKE UP THOSE OTHER MATTERS IN CHAMBERS.
WE'LL STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 9:00 O'CLOCK, TUESDAY THE 21ST.
